Forestry Now

speaker-0 (00:01.784)
Welcome to Forestry Now, where we explore the forces impacting profitable and sustainable management of commercial forests and natural woodlands. I'm Dermot McNally. Today I speak with Kevin O'Connell, Forestry Advisor at Chagisk. Chagisk, our Ireland's National Agriculture and Food Development Authority, and Kevin's role is to advise Irish forest owners about how to best manage their forests. Today we discuss some of the reconstitution schemes the Irish Government offers owners.

We start off by discussing the climate resilience reforestation pilot before moving on to chatting about the Windblow scheme. And finally, the Ash Dyback Scheme. Each scheme has its own focus and nuance as you'll hear, but all offer financial assistance to replant your site and in some cases make annual payments available. While replanting involves challenges, Kevin emphasizes that it offers a great chance for owners to reset the clock.

and grow a new forest that aligns with your objectives. But before we get into any of that, I ask Kevin to introduce himself and explain his role at Chagask.

speaker-1 (01:10.348)
Kevin O'Connell is my name. I'm a forestry development officer with Chaggis. I'm based in Valley Hayes in County Cavan and I look after counties Cavan, Monah, Mead, and Loud. As a Chagas advisor, we provide free, independent, objective advice. There are eight other of my colleagues around the country. And I suppose our role is to provide information to potential forest owners, or indeed forest owners, how to go about carrying out work or looking at different schemes that are available. And

how bringing up points that they should discuss with their own registered foresters, which is I think is very important.

speaker-0 (01:46.306)
Okay, perfect, Kevin. Thanks for that. Well, today we're going to discuss recon schemes in one form or another. There's several, but maybe in the first instance we'd talk a little bit about why owners need to replant in the first instance, because that's something that not all owners are clear about, why they need to do that.

speaker-1 (02:03.692)
Yeah, well, there is an obligation under the twenty fourteen forestry act to to replant after felling. All harvesting or felling requires a failing license. We are looking at and that is, as I say, dictated by the twenty fourteen forestry act. So for anyone who wishes to fell or otherwise remove a tree or trees or to tin a woodland for management purposes must obtain a felling license from the department of

agrifilter food beery. Now these fellow licenses and on are valid for ten years. So again, even at that stage, it's it's important for an owner to discuss with the registered forester the tinning regimes that's going on in your woodland. Because if you only put in for one tinning, your Federal license is only valid for that tinning. You have a ten year window here. So for productive, say Sidka Spruce, you could be tinning on a three or four year rotation every three or four years, I should say, cycle.

And in that context, that would be built into your application for a feloning licence. And indeed, a clear fell at the end of it. Because it costs money to apply for these felon license. Now, technically an owner can apply themselves individually, but it is a it is a daunting, can be a daunting I should say process to do so. But so you'd probably be better off working with a restaurant forester. Now, I'd say the felon license, you can get an extension after that ten years up to a further five years. So that's it important too. So again.

There's most owners have to provide a management plan and then there's a new I plan being released by the Forest Service of recently. And I would advise forest owners, particularly those with with at least five hectares plus in size of forest, to get an I plan done. It's to make the whole certificate say or to facilitate going into certification, but it has other value as well. You do not necessarily have to go into certification immediately, but it's important.

So you can lay out where your forest is going to develop in the next 10, 20, indeed 30 years. Married with the application for a felling license, of course, is you may need a roading grant as well. So again, bundle your jobs with your restaurant forester, you know. Because if you're coming up for a tinning situation, well, you're going to need a road, there are roading grants there available to assist you in that process as well. Having said that about the fellow licenses, there are exemptions to that.

speaker-1 (04:29.838)
that you felling license is is not required. And I suppose the most important one for for for owners at the moment would be you don't require a felling license within 10 meters of a public road if it is deemed that the trees on the public road are in a dangerous condition. And that's very valid at the moment for particularly as dye back trees. I mean health and safety will in that circum circumstances, but you would and should give notification to your local in the county council, certainly to any

utility people have wires or so forth that are running roadside and indeed there's no harm notifying the forest service as well.

speaker-0 (05:05.986)
Kevin, just another point on on those felon licenses. A part of that is the obligation to replant. When you when you talk about the clearfell, your part of the license is you have to specify what what it is you're gonna replant with.

speaker-1 (05:20.236)
Yeah. It's just important that that's part of the process, particularly when you're applying for the ClearFair license, what tree species you're going to replant with. And and we'll get into it a little bit later where the the schemes, some schemes have been introduced, and there may be some variation from the initial species selection on the original Clearfeld license. There may and there are opportunities to amend that species selection.

in people that are pointing to schemes. But yes, you would clearly indicate you would clearly indicate as what species you would intend to go back in and make well. It it is a condition of your federal license. It is important too that dare I say it, there are some exemptions as we regard replanting, but they're limited. And in the context of of of and it's we get frequently asked about people wishing to take forestry

not replant and put it back into agricultural purposes. There is a very limited opportunity to to do that, but you must consult with the Forest Service beforehand. There's a scheme there where you can, dare I say, try and plant the equivalent land, the equivalent in area, but also equivalent in productivity to where your trees are being taken out. But you must get prior approval on that new piece of land from the Forest Service before

They will accommodate you switching from one to the other. And there's also issues associated with that as regards possibly premiums and re repayment of premiums and so on and so forth. There are other instances then where you may be exempt from reforestation, particularly say for our sake if it's close to a an SAC or at least conservation areas and so forth. Again, but con consult with Forest Service in in in all occasions.

speaker-0 (07:08.352)
Okay, yeah. Well, in a sense, the owner is obliged to replant, but I mean, in the sense that they can't easily move to another land function without clear permission, in that sense, it seems to be that there's also a financial motivation because just leaving your land lying there unplanted is hardly a a good long term economic strategy either, Kevin.

speaker-1 (07:31.074)
No, it's not. Indeed, like the land was if you think back to the original person and it may be the same person who planted the the land in the first place, they planted for a reason. And predominantly that reason was the land was, as they'd classified it, unproductive for for agriculture, if you will, at the time. But they've seen how productive it is for forestry. And again, it would would make sense to go back in and and to replant it again.

And again, we'll tip onto it in the context that there may be some assistance and certain circumstances to us to to help with that reforestation. But in the in the main, reforestation is is is carried out by the owner, that their financial assistance is limited. But yeah, i i it's an investment again. And and the sooner they get in after reforestation, after sorry, clear file, the the better, because it's easier to do the job straight away as opposed to leaving it idle for a number of years with rank re

week road coming up through it and different things, you know, it makes it gets very difficult.

speaker-0 (08:32.813)
Perfect. Well, look at there's another thing I've heard you speaking about at field days that have attended that you've been given on behalf of Chagas. And that's this idea that the replanting is an opportunity for an owner to reset the clock on their forest. They've cleared one crop and it's it's now an opportunity to take a clean slate. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because each of these schemes we're talking about today seems to offer an owner who's eligible the opportunity to reimagine.

What way they're gonna manage their forests in the future.

speaker-1 (09:04.718)
Yeah, it's important. The way I would put it that an owner has been through the process already. They've planted the trees, they've seen them grow, developed, possibly been tinned, and so forth. So they have a good first of first time around, you'll appreciate there was a bit of a fear factor in this, an unknown, and rightly so. It is unknown for some people. But now they have a bit of history behind them in the context of all. And it's very, I would strongly

recommend to go with owner's wishes. What does the owner themselves want for their woodland or for their new forest, subject to what the site will grow? In I mean in that context is the soil type, for example, is just very important. But also other aspects like elevation, exposure, and indeed frost pockets and different things like that. They all have to be taken into consideration. But all things when equal, the owner then is in a better position to decide on what tree species they wish to grow.

Now we've come on a long way as regards species. Well, the species are more or less the same, but but the improvement in the in the quality and the genetics of those trees. we've improved Sitka spruce, which will produce and grow faster than, say, probably the first time round spruce that they used. We also have improved birch and oliver, which again are good species to plant in in in on and not as portion of a of a of a second rotation as we call it.

A rotation is the year times of year from planting to to harvester. So there's different options like that. Now, again, and they should sit down and discuss these options with the registered forester and tease it out with the registered forester as to why they can't put in a particular species or why they can't do it one way or the other. You know, and there is there can be reasons for not doing it in a particular way. But in the main, like there's a uniformity in sites.

around Ireland. So again I would advise owners to to take a little bit of ownership this time round.

speaker-0 (11:02.434)
Good idea. And Kevin, something I've noticed the Northeast Forestry Group are involved in is getting the next generation owners involved. And I I guess that if you are an owner who has clearfeld and let's say you're you're optimistic about how long you're gonna live, but maybe if the kids are old enough or you're thinking that way, is do you think they should be getting the the next generation, whoever whoever's coming after them involved in that decision, or should is that is that something you'd recommend?

speaker-1 (11:29.134)
Without doubt, I think it's very, very important to bring in the next generation if they're of of an age to understand what's going on. It's important that you sit down and have the conversation with them. And this is in all the context of forestry, not just with reforestation, if we will. I know it's our topic today, but even with management of ongoing woodlands and so forth, bring in the next generation. Forestry is a long term investment. We're talking even for the fastest grown here, about thirty years.

think abroadly as we're up to about 70 years. It's two, possibly three generations. So it's important that everyone has a say in it. And it's actually a you will find that if the say well call it the first generation has retired, say, from farming and the next generation is coming on. It's a great opportunity to utilize their woodlands in the sense of going down and doing a bit of working it themselves and indeed bringing down part of the family. Like y you're under no pressure to to work at your own pace, I would say.

But importantly, decisions going forward shouldn't include the next generation. It isn't because they're the they're gonna be neglected the the potential others going forward.

speaker-0 (12:36.386)
Yeah, brilliant. Okay. And there's one thing I've noticed on the three schemes we're going to discuss today, and I'll tee up for the question, but the it's a fairly obvious one and one that owners should be aware of in advance. On the financial side, there is support. But if an owner is approved for any of the schemes we're going to talk about today, will they get the payment up front to do the replanting or will they be doing the work and claiming the grant afterwards? And how how does that work in a general sense? Because I think there's a a commonality.

Between the three schemes we're gonna touch on.

speaker-1 (13:06.83)
Well basically broad strokes is similar to the afforestation grant in that you get approval to to do your to get in under particular schemes. You carry out the work and then you apply for a first installment of the grant. Generally that first installment is seventy five percent of the total. And then after year four, the balance twenty five percent is paid subject to conditions, i.e. the the trees are actually free growing. There's at least ninety percent of the growing stock there, they have been maintained and so forth.

So basically it's a similar process. get your approval, but also then the work is carried out and then you apply for the first installment of the grant. Yeah, it's it's it's so there is a little bit out of pocket in that context. But I suppose if we're specifically on reforestation, remember the schemes we're going to talk about now, but if person is not qualifying for those schemes, and it may not necessarily be in Storm Down and Jerry's double touch on, they're replanting out of their own pocket. There's no financial assistance per se for them.

You think about it, it it is deemed that they have got a a a good return on their that they're harvesting. Particularly in the clearfeld, if you will, they've got a good return and they're reinvesting some of that money back into the next the next crop. So their money will be there, if you will, in that context straight away. But as regards the schemes, yeah, you you get approval, you get apply for first installment of the grant and then get the balance year twenty at year four of twenty five percent. Year four.

speaker-0 (14:32.31)
Yeah. Once the trees are are grown to a certain point. No, that's great. Okay. So we we we'll start off then and we'll talk about the climate resilient reforestation pilot scheme. Now, this is a pilot scheme that came in a couple of years ago, and it's a little bit different than the two other schemes we'll talk about. But but maybe we could start off, Kevin, you'd explain what the objectives of this scheme are and limits to the overall area involved, because it is a pilot.

speaker-1 (15:00.142)
Yeah, I suppose I suppose the idea behind this is to increase the forest area countrywide of climate resilient. Make it climate resilient in the context that going forward we have a our as I say our our so-called climate crisis per se. But to make our woodlands more more resilient to that and to increase permanent forestry cover. And that is managed under close to nature forestry. So the idea is get the permanent forest cover that's more resilient to climate change.

and managed under a close to nature silver closure. That's basically in a no check.

speaker-0 (15:34.69)
Yeah, and and I mean, the more resilient often means, I guess, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, resilient often seems to mean a more of a variety of species, but also matching more natural species to sites as opposed to forcing maybe conifers into every corner of of every site. Would that be a kind of a

speaker-1 (15:53.836)
Yeah. Well now having said this, their conversors are are accepted into these schemes part of them as well. But having said that, yeah, taking a whole new look, I suppose, at the way we plant our forests, but also how we our reasons for planting. You know, heretofore it's timber production, out and out timber production. And I mean that was the tradition in in in in Ireland, where now we were beginning to look at a bigger picture and we were beginning to adapt, shall we say, a more European sort of cultural

treatment or management techniques to what our to our woodlands. And part of the, as I say, the objectives of the the European forestry strategy is to increase areas of uneven-age forests i within Europe. And the European Commission has a proposal for a a a nature restoration. So we're tying in with all of that and our own strategy is to obviously is to increase permanent forest cover within the country. So yes, you're correct in the context that it gives options for different species types.

different management techniques, adaptation to better site conditions and so on and so forth. A little bit trickier to manage than, as I say, the normal clear cut system. But again, a nice challenge too. And again, you're sort of getting away a little bit from putting, particularly in the first one for continuous cover forestry, putting all your eggs into one basket, I suppose, it could build particular species.

speaker-0 (17:11.5)
Yeah, perfect. Yeah. And let's be also say, Kevin, where with the wind and the ash, you need to be in affected by those those things that happened. In this instance, you could have had a a really successful crop of broadleaves or conifer. But in this case, it's not because that field, it's because you want to change to a different model, isn't that it?

speaker-1 (17:34.446)
Exactly. And as we've alluded to there previously about the next generation, I'm finding as talking to people, the next generation have a different outlook on what they want the forestry to be. And a lot more are looking at at the dare I say it, like that permanent forest cover, native woodlands, and the protection of environment and biodiversity and water quality and so forth. They've a different outlook and a different sort of ethos than what their their parents, shall we say, w before them. Now, that's great. They're still

financial reward to be getting out of these woodlands. Like you're not giving up the f the commercial side of it as well. It's just that it's a different approach, different species and different different objectives coming out of it. So that's that's that's important to look at in that context. It's what people can voluntarily sign up to. And it's a bit of financial assistance to get you on the on the road, if you will, you know.

speaker-0 (18:25.27)
Yeah. No, that and that's that's a good point because with the ash and the the wind schemes, there's different T's and C's. But this one, and we'll get into it just a bit. This one, as well as supporting the replanting, pays an ecosystem service grant for a number of years. But we'll get to that. I know that the annual limit on this scheme is only five hundred and twenty five hectares, but if you have a really big

site Kevin, is there a limit on how big an individual site can be? 'Cause 'cause let's say someone is taking twenty hectares out of conifer and is gonna go to continuous cover, are will they get all of that twenty hectares in or is it capped on individual applications?

speaker-1 (19:09.272)
First of all, you're correct in sense that it's it's the total annual limit is five hundred and twenty five hectares. Remember this is a pilot scheme, so that's what that's but once that limit has been reached and you know that yearly limit has been reached, forest service will notify rested foresters through circular to say we're approaching the limit of that for this year. So it will be closed. Getting back to your other question, is there limits on it? Yeah, there are of about twelve hectares per application in any in any one year.

So that's the maximum you can you can achieve. And within that, then as we go, there's in the scheme there's a limit for one particular one there of five hectares per year. So yeah, there are there are limits within it. But anyone wishing to go into these again, sit down, have a look at it, discuss it with the restorator or myself or one of my colleagues, wherever you're located, and you know, go through it and tease out these things. Okay.

speaker-0 (20:03.894)
Okay. Well look at we've got a good background on this and some of what we're talking about will apply to the next recon schemes as well. But this particular scheme, the the climate resilience scheme, it has three options that an owner can think about and choose which one to apply for. So let's talk about element one, which is continuous cover forestry. Am I right in saying that this is basically planting a mix that is moving away from a single species into something that will be managed by continuous cover?

Forestry and and tell me a little bit about it, Kevin.

speaker-1 (20:37.034)
Yeah, it is going away from shall we say the the the previous sort of monoculture, I suppose, be of conifer or broadleaf, and now you're putting in a a mixture of species and managing them under continuous cover of forestry. And basically what continuous cover of forestry, the principles behind it really are for people who are not aware of it, is as it's in the name, there will be always continuous cover on that particular portion of the land. Right.

But put within that, there will be different age structures, there will be different species, there will be different in in intensities of trees in one particular area, maybe fewer in another area. So basically like what you're trying to do is go close to nature, if you will, in how trees would develop if left to their own devices. And having said that, you can still produce quality trees out of it and have a good economic return out of it.

So basically under CCF the principles would be you're talking really to conserve of the forest ecosystem, predominantly soil and so forth, protection of SSA of soil and the climate that's in there and production of of timber. And again, importantly now providing cultural recreation and immunity service services to people. So we're looking at CCF, I suppose, and and yeah, you're going back to there's a mixture of species and predominantly it's

About 55% off the top of my head of a conifer species, depending on on soil type and and other site conditions. That could be, say, fish silica spruce or indeed Norway spruce. You're then looking at, I think it's 25% of two other conifer species. Again, depending on soil type, that could be European larch or Douglas for possibly Western Red Seed or Western Hemmock, some of these species. And then there's the 20%, then or the balance, sorry, of broadleaf species.

10% which of which be oak. And again, species selection would be based on soil type, as I mentioned. So what are you looking at in that context? You're looking at trees that are grown at different rates, and therefore they would have to be put into plots or lines within that structure. So you want compatible species growing close to each other rather than if you put dominant species in with all the rest, they'll just, as I say, it's in the name, they'll dominate them and probably kill them off. Again, you're looking at this staggered.

speaker-1 (22:59.532)
You will be the conifers will mature sooner than the broadleaves if you will buy the oak. And so you will be tak tinning the broadleaves. You will scan it when some grow on to be quite large. But then the oak is coming up for the for the long term. And as you take out your conifers, this is very simple you put, other species are coming in, be natural regeneration or replanting on in those areas. So again, we're continuous cover on on that piece of ground. So that's basically a very simplistic approach to it, I suppose. But

It's that's what the idea is behind it. But there's a bit of limitations in that in that these sites must be free drain mineral sites that with an elevation lower than three hundred meters. You can't put this scheme into anything like that because again, s would win stability or you know, to this the stand up to win. And also thing that bear in mind is that if there is a threat of an invasive species, I like Rhoda Gendin Laurel that's in very close proximity.

That may have a a a bearing on the decision to go into the scheme because they're quite invasive. And as you we've all seen them run a dendron in the orange as an understory mode, nothing else grows there. So just be wary of that. Sorry, the grant for that is two thousand two hundred per hectare. And you get shall we say, an annual payment of 150 euros for seven years. Which is at least it's something coming back to you.

speaker-0 (24:23.49)
Yeah, exactly. okay, so we're sticking with this climate resilience scheme. We'll move on to element two, which is native forests. Talk to me about this one and pick out the key points, please, Kevin.

speaker-1 (24:34.958)
Well, this is again reforestation for native forests. And again, you're looking it courage reforestation primarily of existing conifer stands with the most appropriate forest native forest type as by the native forest framework. And that's in the forest standard manual. Again, you're marrying the again, site, you're marrying the species of native trees that you're planting to the site conditions. That's simply basically what it is. And it's a collection of things in in it on the site.

Again, it's try you you're we're increasing our cover of native woodland. And again, it's providing all the the benefits of biodiversity and the recreation and the the water quality and soil conservation and so on and so forth. But it then again it's still producing and can produce quality wood products. Now, when planting the predominantly native species we'll be planting these is is oak, of course. And ideally those oaks have to be sourced and where it's grown.

or a seed if you will. Now, in depending on the uptake, we might not have enough of our own native oak in that particular year. So the Forest Service will give notification if we can use provenance of oak from outside the the the jurisdiction. There's two kind of sites involved in this there's priority ecological sites and these would kind of consist of old woodland sites that were there from the sixteen hundreds and and that can be located or areas close to or adjacent to special areas of conservation or

national heritage areas that kind of a way. Or indeed sites that were on the 1830 maps. Again, these are priority sites. And there's other, there's other ones as well that they're in the conviction job. That has a it's a bearing on this because the pre the grant rate for for planting in that context is 4,800 Jonas per hectare. Okay, which is it's it's a sizable amount. But again, what's of benefit to the owner, there are two payments as regards for payments for e

The ecological services, if you will. One is for 500 euros per treated hectare for seven years, and the other is for 150 euros per treated hectare for seven years. So there's a total of in these priority sites for the native woodland of a premium of 650 euros per hectare for seven years. It's a nice little playback on that context. Again, then there's for all other sites that maybe are not in these ecological priority sites, again, the the grant would be

speaker-1 (26:59.714)
for establishing re Jan Rather would be two thousand seven hundred euros per hectare. And then the annual payment for ecological services would be five hundred euros per hectare for seven years. So again, a nice payment as well in that context. So that's the neighbourhood and to increase our cover of native

speaker-0 (27:18.222)
This podcast is kindly supported by the Irish Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. If you're thinking of planting a new forest or keen to access information on financial and technical supports to manage your existing forest, then go to gov.ie forward slash forestry for you. I'll include that link and other critical details about the guest and this topic in the show notes. Now back to the chat.

The next scheme it has a kind of similar ideas or intentions. It's the element three is called biodiversity and water. And just it's fairly maybe obvious what that focuses on, but maybe you just chat through the key points of that element.

speaker-1 (28:03.19)
Yeah, well again as it's in the name, as you said yourself, it's for improving biodiversity and protecting the water quality and again the creation of habitats or linking habitats with the woodland sites and so on and so forth that has water like is i i in close proximity to water. I'll just give you the the the grants in that concentr for for we for planting is tr three thousand euros per hectare and have an annual premium of three hundred and fifty euros per hectare. But what it will allow you to do, it will

basically you're looking at creating undisturbed areas for biodiversity and water protection close to the setback areas that are normally within a reforestation site and that's important. Associated measures would include like you're you're bringing this ground back to a sort of as I would say a natural condition for the want of better word. So it includes drain blocking and slow water damming and planting of native broadleaves, for example, that are widely spaced or groups. So you're planting native trees then in that situation.

And again, again it's the water protection and water quality are important. Now go with these grants that that that are there, there is assistance with fencing as well if deer are an issue in your in your particular locality. And again, in that, sorry, in the last one there in the reforestation of the biocam water, where sites on the sites you'll associate, you'll appreciate rather that they're they're they're going to be damp sites, i.e. wet in some instances. But on the drier bits of that, you'll be concentrating, say, putting in a bit of oak for an argument's sake.

And at the at the the more damper bits of ground you will be putting in again, I use a species like alder, for example. And the alder can be planted a wider spacing and the oak would be at a closer space. So yeah, there's there's flexibility within it. Again, and again it's it's it's something people may be interested in going for.

speaker-0 (29:50.402)
Yeah, I think from what I'm hearing, the scheme has been hugely oversubscribed as being popular. And it's a good thing. So hopefully we'll see the the scheme extended because it's encouraging people to to take a chance on moving away from a purely productive model. So so that's a good thing. We'll move on now, Kevin, to the wind reconstitution scheme. Now this was announced after the two big storms that hit

Ireland in the end of twenty four and twenty-five. The final details of the scheme came out in twenty twenty six, although parts of the details were fairly well known. But can you explain why it was needed and what it funds forest owners affected by wind to do?

speaker-1 (30:35.714)
But basically you're you're right there here in the context of this scheme was introduced 2026 this year in the context of how to forest owners replant wind damaged forests. Again, we're everywhere and it's got to do with wind damage from the two major storms that passed through here in late twenty-four and january twenty-five, Storm Dara and Stormio. And suppose Storm Erwin did did did the most damage, basically in us.

I think there was in the region of country wide, there was about twenty-six thousand hectares below. And out of that thirteen thousand half of it was private forests, the rest being investment companies in the country. So a lot of timber was down in a short period of time overnight, estimate about four years cut in one year coming down. So you can see what happened there. A lot of and the idea of this was again, and I remember having a group of people, foresters, forest owners rather talking and

Literally a week or so after A Wyn went through and people were and rightly devastated of what what they were seeing in their own woodlands. So the Forest Service Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine came up with with this scheme to assist people then with the reforestation of these these woodlands. And so basically there's grants available in that context. Now it's the grants are only available for sites that were not sure for windblow damage.

And in most cases, insurance cover for wind blown ceases at year twenty. Not all, but majority of the sites blown the except excessive year twenty. So that's a very important. And the Forest Service will want to know that your and will need proof that your in your your forest was not insured for wind blow. In some instances where where there was insurance for wind damage with and the owner had to pay in excess, if you will.

If that ex excess can be quantified and by both the owner and the insurance company, there may be an opportunity to get payment for that excess from from the department. But again, we'd look at it. Now, help is only available, financial help is only available for from forest where there's greater than twenty percent storm damage really. So that's the that's their knockoff point, up to twenty, twenty percent of the rate. So that's that's in that context.

speaker-1 (33:01.654)
So basically waterby what's classified as windblown. Well, basic any tree that's physically blown over as you foreseen or uprooted or partially uprooted. And in the case primarily of say Norway spruce, which tends to snap as opposed to blow over. Sidka spruce will blow over, if you will. Norway spruce tends to snap because he's got a a more deeper root system. And in fact it it's the the it's better if the trees actually blow over than the snap because snap

trees in most cases, even the irrespective of their size, are only thick foot pulp. So that's that's in that context. As I say, significant in meat wind blow damage, 20% or more of the area in the relevant forestry. So who's eligible for this? At least 20% of a plot of forest comprising of the original grant aided contract has been wind damaged. So if you have a plot and up greater than 20% of it has been wind damaged, that's eligible. Or if you take your forest as a whole if just greater than 20%

Well, that then is eligible as well. Or if if there's a twenty percent of a non-graded forest area, a contiguous forest area bordering, if you will, a forest or so forth, that has been wind damaged, or twenty percent of a single forest holding that has been wind damaged. There is a an opportunity. Any owner out there who still has wind damage again would want to have that conversation with their registered forester and and get to trade the the things on the on board like.

Now, in addition to the windblow trees that satisfy the twenty percent condition, so bear in mind the twenty percent condition is there. In certain circumstances, then adjoining standing trees, trees that were not actually blown, can be eligible for this assistance of of of replant planting after harvest. So so that's an important too. Immediately after the the storm, the Forest Service went out there and they took satellite imagery.

from different satellites like SkySat and Centennial 2 and Planet Scope and so forth, and also in some other circumstances drone footage. And you can see on your maps an IFORS outline blue polygons and forest areas. And that's what the Forest Service have come up with as what was being drawn in that particular forest, as they got it from their satellite imagery. Now that's that's and all that satellite imagery was being used for was to get an overview

speaker-1 (35:23.212)
Of the quantity of trees that were blown countrywide. It's not as if they were looking down at your particular forest and outlined in blue, well, that's what's blown there. That's all you're getting. That's not what it is about. Now, when your registered forester is applying for this grant, it's up to him or her to have a look at this. I've up when I was out with people last year and even this year as well, I advised all to get drone footage if they can have their wood.

Because it will come down to a little bit of horse training, and we appreciate that it scuers depression. But that's that's where it is. So it's important in that context, you know. So deal talk to your registered forester, get the maps in, and open discussions with the Forest Service on this. That's that's in that context. Now getting on to the scenarios that are there, and these are it's probably difficult to to describe without actually seeing them. But for example,

If you've bands of trees that are adjoining or or close to wind blown areas and on average they're less than fifty meters in width, you can harvest them and get assistance on your the the reconstitution of scheme that window. So basically if you if you have twenty five trees if you've got fifty meters, you know, on average, they can be harvested too.

speaker-0 (36:39.436)
And Kevin, the the idea there being that that some trees will be vulnerable once you clear what's already blown adjoining trees could easily come down at a later stage. So that the the department is kind of recognizing that, isn't that it?

speaker-1 (36:53.752)
Yeah, because what'll happen and and and indeed what is is going to be happening and owners are going to be aware of it is what we call creep. Yeah, standing trees that are now have been opened up two years ago. They were standing in the middle of a wood and now they're on the edge of a wood, if you will, for intensive purposes. They haven't developed as an edge tree. So there will what we call get a bit of creep. Then gradually some will grow. But there's other scenarios there, for example, as I say, islands of standing trees, where there has been wind blow on all sides of them, or up within seventy meters or greater in size.

They can be taken now because like that other just said, they will they will blow. Standing trees that are within a plot where the multiple pockets of windblown trees. Like you have a your block of forest, and then within that there's multiple pockets of wind blown. And the windblown areas make up over 40%. Well, then you can harvest the stand and and and and get the the reforestation in that. And then where you find on particularly where the wind came in, you might have a jagged edge left aft.

trees lined it up against standing timber and jagged edge, there's a facility there then to to clean off that edge through within, say, 10% of the area, you know, tidying up that area. Again, it's hard to explain it here. You nearly want to be on the ground and talking to people to see it. But again, pollers walk the land with their with their registered foresters and have a look at that and submit their

speaker-0 (38:15.636)
Submit their application. No, you're dead right, Kevin. I I've seen there's good information available online and I'll link to that in the show notes. And yeah, it's really up to an owner to to try and speak to their forester and they'll give them the advice that applies to their scenario. Because as you say, it's a bit unique. But there's one or two really kind of awkward questions that I have for you, Kevin, and I know you're the man for them. So here here we go. So I had storm damage, let's imagine.

But it took me a long time to get the harvest and contractor. And between the the wind blow that the department registered on their satellite photographs and a new storm or more trees have come down effectively. Can you just answer that in a general sense? Will I be entitled to apply for assistance on the new areas that have blown since the original storm? Or is everything based off that original satellite image, if you get me?

speaker-1 (39:10.476)
Both the short answer is yes. In the main it'll be based off of the damage by those two storms. As I I did allude to the creeps coming in. And again, if people are at the moment were coming into the winter period and now and people who haven't got around for whatever reason to clearing their woods or so forth, they're going to find that they probably will get more blow coming into it because of of the winter storms. And it's going to be a hard one for for for for more parties to to come to it. So they say compromise on it, but

I actually there is there is something there and it eludes me just at the moment on that particular question. And but if anyone is in that scenario, they can again contact the the like of myself from the colleagues to to we can clarify it for

speaker-0 (39:53.496)
We'll look at there's there's a few scenarios and the bottom line is is that clear areas that have been blown over twenty percent will get support for replanting, and then there's other Ts and C's and more nuanced support. What type of species will the scheme fund for replanting? And again, is the standard replanting rate supply with seventy-five percent support after planting, etc.?

speaker-1 (40:20.652)
Okay, well they have the the six different reconstitution types under the reconstitution scheme for wind blow, excuse me. And the first one is native forests, okay? And that's as per FT1, as we call it, of the present deforestation scheme. And there's a grant there per hectare of six thousand seven hundred and forty-four euros. Then there's this RSW two, that's that's reconstitution scheme, the windblower, just that's what that is.

Broadleaf mainly oak and beach, again, as per forest time six, again, it's 6,744 euros. Diverse broadleaves, RSW3, as per FT7, premium that comes down a wee bit, it's 4,304 euros per hectare. Then RSW4, this is the continuous cover forestry, as per FT10, and that's 500. Sorry, 5,421.

And then there's mixed high forest diverse conifer as per FT eleven in under the present scheme, and that's four thousand four hundred and fifty-two. Now this there's two sort of ones under RSW six. There's RSW six A and there's RS R SW six B. So RSW six A is mixed high forest with Sitka spruce. Again, that's very similar to F T twelve, where you're looking at sixty five percent spruce and and then

Why open areas and broadleaves. And you're looking at 3,858 euros per hectare. And then there's RSW six B, it's conifer high forest with Sidka spruce and less than 20% broadleaf trees. So basically there are six, seven, if you will, if you divide RSW six into A and B options there for owners. So it's there. As we went back to owners' objectives or owners' choice at the start, this is where.

the owner takes a deep breath with their next generation and decide what do they want how they plan their forest. Now that's the grants for establishment or replanting, I should say, keep on establishing, but for replanting. Running with that, then there may be grants for deer fencing. So deer fencing and tree shelter grants again are available to protect against deer obviously, and only where deer are to be deemed to impede successful establishment.

speaker-1 (42:46.464)
So you can't just put it up for the sake of putting it up. There has to be a high risk of deer damage occurring if fencing wasn't put up. Or so Conifer High Forest is not eligible deer fence, deer tree shelter ground. So your conifer high forest is not is not eligible for that. It's really your lake looking at the the the broadleaf comes from Poland, I suppose, for this. No other fencing grounds are available for cattle or sheep or rabbits or hares. So

It's only deer, bear that in mind. And for particularly those selected with the predominantly broadleaf elements to them. So that's important that people are aware of that. So how does one go about getting these grants? Well, the thing about it is you need a registered forester, of course. like any grant applications within the the the whole suite of forestry grants and so forth, you will need a registered forester. Okay. So you may have worked with one previously and you're happy enough with working with that person. Fair enough, or you

There's a list of registered foresters if you wish to use someone new or so forth for whatever your reasons, it's there as well. Now that that registered foresters should work in tandem with you, adhering to what your wishes are and what is actually practical for the site. And there's there's a bit of stuff to be put in there. There's site location maps and certified windbow maps and certified plant and species maps, as we mentioned from the the like license and fencing maps as to to be applied as well.

course a tree fell in license as well, Ivan Solve it. And when this the storm occurred, Dapham, the Forest Service, put out a they made it available to people who had it had a tinning license that they could up that to a Clearfeld license for for removal of storm damage. So that's what came into play. Anyone who had no felling license, Clearfell or tinning or otherwise they would have had to apply straight for a full Clearfeld license to further storm damage.

But people who had a tilling license already would not clear file license, they could up that to a clearfeld license. They had to adhere to conditions as of course. And one of those conditions after the planting was done was that they would submit their reforestation. sorry, not when the them to but they had to re to submit their species that were going to to go and plant. Now things have changed a little bit in the context of some of these schemes in that

speaker-1 (45:13.556)
Owners may may want to change the species that they initially put down on these vetting licenses. And in first service, they will facilitate that in in under certain circumstances. And again, it's worth contacting the Forest Service in those instances to see how how they can be facilitated. And again, importantly too, as I mentioned at the start there, that sign declaration referring forestry insurance. The Forest Service will insist and that goes through with your application.

Just bear in mind for anyone who hasn't moved on this, it's something that they should be looking at. And because the applications for the scheme are can only be submitted up to the twenty seventh of July in twenty twenty seven. So you're looking at seven months into July of next year, you must get your application in for the scheme. So people may not be aware of that. And you see, there has been a lot, Jeremy, excuse the the expression, with harvested.

Because of the logistics. We hadn't enough of our own machines here. We hadn't enough lorries here. Some instances roads weren't in place. I do know harvesting people from Britain and and Europe came in as well to get rid of that log jam to get the timber moving. And that's still playing out to a certain extent. It's not as bad as it was. So there are logistics. So I would suggest that anyone who's wants to veil this can seriously contact their Richard Forester and get the ball rolling.

Yeah, clear. So basically that that's in that context for the the the the wind lo you know. I mean there's there's other conditions. I'm just trying to give an overview with

speaker-0 (46:52.438)
No, I think you've you've covered that perfectly. and Kevin, just one other question we haven't touched on. In the climate resilient reforce scheme, and also I know in the Ash scheme there are some other payments other than the replanting grants. Am I right in saying there's no ongoing seven year payment of any sort in the wind wind recon scheme?

speaker-1 (47:17.11)
No, there's no it's just the grant reforest based on the the type of reforestation you're gonna go ahead with it. As I said, there's a dark like from member is it's the six different options you have, six being six A and six B. So that's that's all this that's that's and again if if a fencing grant indeed if for deer, deer only if it's an issue, the broader components of of most of it, except cover for high forest. So that's that's that's what's there. Now very important.

If you wanted to do a bit on a nice day back very

speaker-0 (47:48.782)
Yeah, I'd like to ask you about ash dieback as well, because that scheme is still open and we know from government statistics that not everyone has applied. And unless they have a miracle crop of ash that is resilient to ash dieback, the chances are they have a a crop that's dying on its feet. So tell me time is running out on that one as well, Kevin. So maybe you talk a little about the Ash recon scheme.

speaker-1 (48:13.582)
Yeah, well the the ash reconstru scheme was initially a reconstitution scheme was brought in in twenty thirteen and this was brought into like officially the first the first occurrence of ashty back officially twenty twelve. Ash trees were dying, particularly and at that stage there were younger trees that were affected. And of course there was a

a source of infection then with these young trees and obviously it's spread, it's a fungal disease. Since then there have been four reconstitution schemes. One in 2013, reconstitute an underplant scheme in 2020. And then there was an internal reconstitution scheme in 2023 and the present one there reconstitution for ash dieback schemes. So basically what these are grants that are made available to to ash owners to remove their ash and to replant it.

with a different species we can that ground with a different species. Now one important thing in the option of this is that there is an option on that they can convert to agroforestry if they wish to in this case it not under the window or not and or indeed any clearfeld site of in conifers or that a agroforestry is not an option in that context. So what's available to the well there's a grant of two thousand two thousand euros per hectare

to clear the site. Initially that was only 1,000 euros per hectare, but it has been up particularly in this this round of 2,000 euros per hectare. And that is to remove the ash from the site, harvest it. And indeed, if it's if it's fit for firewood, utilize it for firewood and use the tops from wood chip or so forth. Or indeed if it's if it's too far gone and it's not of enough firewood size, it could be windroad or chips, like things like that. That's up to the owner, whatever they wish to do with.

Then they have an opportunity then to go in and replant. And the replanting then is equivalent. There are again a number of options, seven options. One is native forests, Ft1, put in native woodlands, or broadleaves, mainly oak and beech, which is FT six, or diverse broadleaves like sycamore and Norway maple and indeed red oak and so forth, FT seven, agroforestry FT eight.

speaker-1 (50:36.844)
Which some people have decided to do, or F D ten continues cover forestry that we had mentioned. And then we're into mixed high forests and mixed high forests with syncus proofs. So these are your seven options per se that person can apply for. And the grant rates are similar to what's in the FTs. You again we're stretching from six and a half, six thousand seven hundred and forty four Euros rate down to three thousand eight hundred and fifty eight units. Like that's the your

So that's the grants that are available and there's some there's also assistance with fence as well in that country.

speaker-0 (51:08.064)
Okay. And as you said, some of the general conditions are similar to what we've previously discussed, but there is something that's very different on the Ash scheme, and that's the climate action performance payment. So maybe you could explain what it is and what it gives the owner.

speaker-1 (51:24.578)
Just before the context of that. So so if Ash is there and it's still in premium, and and this would even be pre for not for the present ash diabetic, but once it went previously. An owner, if they decide to put in oak, for example, got their ashes and put in oak and they were still in re receipt of premium, well then their premium would continue to be paid, but it will be upped to the value of the oak premium, if you win under the under premium spot. And also then there would be it can be a top up.

when because they tie you then into the the premium payments that are there now or for FT1 and using native wood native forest in that context. For anyone who's not that's for farmers, for anyone who's a non-farmer, a top up of 300 euros per hectare calculated for the remaining period of the premium will be and can be paid in single sum. So in other words, if there's still premium payments attached to the the the the ash and so forth.

People don't lose them, they'll continue to get to us until their period is up. Sorry, getting onto your capital climate action performance payments. These were brought in to to assist with ash owners. And simply put, it's 5,000 euros per hectare to the owner that the owner themselves apply for to directly to the to the forest surface. The first payment is of two and a half thousand is applied for after the first grant.

is applying for. So basically it's in tandem with you'll go back into replant. When the person applies for the grant to to replant, the first installment of the grant, i.e. 75% of it is paid in year room. Once that is paid, the owner themselves independently can apply for two and a half thousand euros per hectare. Right. At year four, the second instalment of the grant, i.e. the maintenance part, is paid, the balance 25%. And at that period,

The owner then can go and apply for 1,250 euros per hectare. And the year after that, they can apply for the balance, another 1,250 euros. So that's their 5,000 euros per hectare. This is the thing there at at the UR. If the owner, forest owner, is out of premiums or at the end of their premiums and they are still in receipt. So big so sorry, a big I I'm just trying to read something there and tell you.

speaker-1 (53:48.288)
Again, it's important too that if owners are still in receipt of the premiums that I mentioned, well then they must wait till those premiums are up to to get the the second one thousand two hundred and fifty euros. So there might be a bit of a lag in that context. But that money is coming to you and it's income tax free.

speaker-0 (54:07.512)
Brilliant. Okay. So so in essence, this scheme is gonna give you over and above the replanting grant to help you on whatever species you choose, or whether you go with agroforestry, you're gonna get your two thousand to clear the site. And potentially if all goes well and you manage the site and get your trees established and growing well, there could be, should be up to five thousand a hectare on top of that payment.

for you, the owner to keep themselves. So that's that's an extra bonus, yeah.

speaker-1 (54:38.552)
You sit in the bank as the safety. If you have to wait till your premiums are that one is in the bank. And also as a there is assistance with fencing as well, you know, the the the ash dyback scheme. So it is an attractive thing. Again, there may be depending on the age of your trees, there may be value there for firewood firewood as well, which again, when you're clearing the site, that could be an extra bit of income. It's health, as I will say. The disease came, there that there's there was really nothing people can do about that. So

This is some assistance to to t to help the owners in that context. Basically the three main assistance, if you will, for for for reforestation. Two schemes are there because of catastrophes, if you will. The storm, particularly storm, AON, and the Ashton Bank. And that's what we're there to bring in. They have a life a lifespan, if you will, and as I said, vast applications for the windblow scheme is that July of twenty twenty seven.

speaker-0 (55:12.77)
Yeah, very good.

speaker-1 (55:37.914)
And I think the week the door closes on applications at the end of twenty thirty seven for sash dip. So anyone out there again or if you know of anyone, please inform to sort of get things moving.

speaker-0 (55:50.094)
Very good. Okay, Kevin, I think we've we've covered those three schemes very well. And as as always, the owners need to talk to their forester and look for additional information. Any closing thoughts or further advice to forest owners thinking of any of these schemes or any last throwaway advice, I supp.

speaker-1 (56:09.56)
suppose. Well, I suppose take because of the scheme we're we're discussing two of the schemes here are as a traumatic event. And I can understand the apprehension that is is going forward again. But again, like any firstly believe one way or the other is an investment. and with any investment there is a risk associated with it. But having said that, there's quite a lot of assistance as we've seen some of it, this is only some of the package that the the Daphne virus division will provide with to you. And they are

They're helpful there in that context. It's increase your knowledge of your forestry. Go to the knowledge transfer groups that are available around the country. Apply to go then. There is a lot of promotional activity going on by ourselves, Jogas, but by like this podcast, for example, or other events around the country. Make yourself aware. Get out there, meet like minded people, go join forest owner groups.

As I said, we've the Northeast Forest Group here in this particular area. And it's it's great because not only are people getting an education peer by peer-to-peer, but there's also a very good social element to it. Because unfortunately, the age structure of forest owners in the country is 50 years north north of 50 years. Like and like it's a it can be a good outing to or a social event to meet people at these events and chat and discuss things.

And not unnecessarily in a forestry context. So there is health benefits there and well mean and so forth as well. It's not all about the the conclines and pens at the end of the day.

speaker-0 (57:41.486)
Brilliant, Kevin. Thanks very much for joining me.

speaker-1 (57:43.694)
You're welcome, Derber. Thank you.

speaker-0 (57:46.178)
Thanks again to Kevin O'Connell for joining me on the podcast and for sharing his expertise. Links to everything we discussed in the podcast can be found in the show notes, where you'll also find ways you can get in touch with Kevin or myself. Thank you all for listening and chat soon.