Forestry Now

Dermot McNally 0:01
Welcome to forestry now, where we explore the forces impacting profitable and sustainable management of commercial forests and natural woodlands. I'm Derek McNally. In this interview, I speak with olive Levy, a forest owner from County West Meath who currently works with pro silver olive has chosen to manage her forest using the continuous cover forestry method. And in this interview, we explore all aspects of this, including wind blow ash die back, harvesting a firewood business and much more. But to get started, I asked olive to introduce herself and explain how she ended up managing family forest in Westmeath, I

Olive Leavy 0:42
kind of got involved maybe about nine years ago. I was living in the UK and working there, and then I moved home, and my parents had planted part of the farms. My parents had a dairy farm, and we had an out farm about three kilometers up the road, and in 2001 they planted about 20 hectares of forestry up there, and it was something that was mum and dad were involved in it. I had nothing to do it. Had never stepped into it. After it was planted, they spent a lot of time there, you know, doing a lot of maintenance, doing a lot of pruning on the broad leaves and stuff. It wasn't until I came back from England in 2016 when I came back, and it's about 2017 when I went up to the forest, and that's where my involvement in forestry started.

Dermot McNally 1:31
Am I right in saying you started helping them out a wee bit with managing the forest? Yeah.

Olive Leavy 1:36
So my mum had passed away when I came home. Dad was like, Oh, would you give me a hand with the paperwork? Because he knew he needed to kind of do a felling license, and, you know, kind of start thinking about how to manage it and stuff. And I was like, Sure, I hadn't. I moved home without much of a plan, which is kind of a lot of what I do. And so I was around, and I said, Sure, no problem, I'd help. And he brought me up, and the first time I stepped in, I just really, just kind of blew my mind that how these fields that I had played in and, you know, counter cattle in as a child, completely transformed into something I could never have imagined. You know, there was a completely different ecosystem, like there'd be no thinnings, there was no paths through so we were climbing over branches and trying to find our way through it. I got completely lost, and did for several months. Dad was involved in the local forest owner group, and I started to go with him to meetings and stuff, and just meeting other people who had forestry and who were passionate about forestry, kind of really drew me into it, I think, you know. So we started, then kind of started with the paperwork, and then I was like, sure I can do a bit of the thinning, you know. So I was around, it was a nice summer, and I said, Sure, give it a go. So I got chain trained up on the chainsaw. I did a week long chainsaw training course. From that, then I ended up spending a lot of time in the forest, and I put in inspection paths, and that's kind of how it all started, yeah. Well, tell us

Dermot McNally 3:10
then exactly what was planted then on the first day. So we so we get us up to date,

Olive Leavy 3:15
of course, of course. Yeah. So it's a 19 hectare site. There's about 14 hectares of Norway spruce. We're in the Midlands, and it's a lot of it is very low lying. So to put Norway Spruce in instead of sick, because it's more frost resistance. It doesn't flush in spring until a bit later. So it's kind of not as sensitive to that late frost that we can get around here, and then there was been under three hectares of Sycamore and two hectares of ash, roughly. I don't know why there was more Sycamore than ash went in, because usually forests like that, it would have been pretty much all ash, or, you know, more ash than Sycamore anyway. But for some reason, we have more Sycamore and actually, very lucky for us, given what's happened to the ash, you know, that we still have, you know, a good block of broad leaves there in the sycamore. And then there was also, kind of a couple of pockets of beech planted and birch and but on the site, kind of, there's a couple of really interesting features in it. There's a row of veteran beech trees, maybe 150 200 year old beech trees, running right through the middle of it. And then there's also, kind of, it was a windbreak that my grandfather planted back in 1954 of Sitka spruce. So they're still there. So we've got these old sickest Bruce. So they're these little kind of features that break up the and the forest. And all the hedgerows were maintain air retained as well. So it kind of helps break it up and kind of, and those hedgerows are. Kind of quite an interesting seed source. And the beech trees, you know, they're thrown out huge amount of seed

Dermot McNally 5:06
sometimes in forestry, when we have conifer blocks, you'll see the hedges smothered in did the hedges manage to have enough space to stay alive and stay productive

Olive Leavy 5:16
in parts? I mean, there wouldn't have been amazingly thick hedges. Do you know before? Anyway, some kind of would be better than others, but they're, you know, you can still see that they're there. And anyway, they're open. They're kind of thriving. But definitely, I suppose within the no the blocks in Norway, they wouldn't really see those. There's some was mature trees in them as well. So the mature trees are still going, but, I mean, we've got Holly in them that's coming out as well, and so, yeah, okay, I wouldn't say, like, they're fantastic, you know, hedges. I know there are people who've got, you know, who are very much into hedge lane and stuff, and they've beautiful hedges that they've they keep the, you know, the brought them conifers back from to protect the hedge, but these wouldn't have been, you know, well maintained hedges. Do you know what I mean?

Dermot McNally 6:10
Yeah, yeah, no, no, understood. And just to finish off, then it's low lying ground typically can get a bit of frost. And what about the soils? Then olive higher there, or is there a mixture?

Olive Leavy 6:21
Yeah, Midlands they, I mean, it was marginal fields. So where the broad leaves are, that's the best ground. And that would be mineral this kind of, kind of a slope in it, and kind of the broad leaves are kind of up on the higher base. That would be more minerally. And then it gets down to into PC ground, really, and that's where a lot of the conifers are honest. Do you know it's marginal soil?

Dermot McNally 6:48
When you walked in 2016 2017 everything had established fairly well, and you had started going to meetings to get a bit of information. At what point did you make the decision to try CCF as a management technique

Olive Leavy 7:01
that didn't come till a bit later. Actually, I kind of, I suppose, I hadn't really thought about what we were doing kind of long term though, you know, I didn't, hadn't really a vision for the place developed. It was more like, well, we need to get a road in. We need to start thinning. I started thinning the broad leaves myself. And we were just kind of working through things step by step, really, and kind of not thinking about a bigger picture. The CCF came along, really, when I started seeing the signs of ash die back, which was about 2018 I think was the first signs. Then 2019 kind of started to see it more. And then it was around that time there was a bit like, Whoa, this is a bit of a risky asset. So I was thinking of purely from economic points of views going around, I've got this asset. It's really composed, you know, I've got three components to it. One of them has got a disease that's going to wipe it out. So the Norway sick, more ash. So Ash is gone. I started to hear about the bark beetle in Europe that prefers Norway, but the spruce bark beetle, I say, if that gets in then, you know, I'm really, you know, it's a really risky asset. So it's like, what can I do to diversify this acid, to make this more resilient? Is the word I've now learned. I didn't realize at the time, that's what I was thinking. But that's, you know, so and that's what kind of led me to continuous cover forestry. And there was a few people in the group, well, two people in the group who were already kind of starting to under, you know, transform their forests over to a CCF forest, and those little seeds listening to their conversation. It's amazing how that can spread. And kind of now about half the group is managing their forests under CCF. So that kind of peer to peer knowledge and seeing others do it was really helpful. So that was kind of the started me on the journey. And then I met my forester, Manus Crowley, and he's actually the chair of pro silver Ireland as well. And he came on board to help, you know, he looked at the forest and was like, yeah, if you know, if you're up for it, then this is a good forest to try and transform over to CCF. So that's the journey we're on now. Is the transformation. So it's a slow process, it's, it'll be my lifetime, breaking it up, you know, introducing new species, making it more resilient, trying to get that irregularity in tree height, in tree composition, in species. So just Yeah, making it Bren in more variability and irregularity into the forest.

Dermot McNally 9:39
Okay, so between Manus and yourself. You've got the road in and your first conifer thin and generally with CCF, it's a fairly standard one and seven, you do a little bit of selection. Is that how it worked out? Or did you do anything different?

Olive Leavy 9:53
We didn't. So I suppose that is like generally, your first thing is about just getting the infrastructure. Structure in place. So putting in your racks, so that's where the machines will always, you know, travel, and you do some selection in my site, it was a little different, because we are concerned about stability, because of the soils. And so we decided to go, like, kind of our whole approach is little and often. So we put in the racks in some places, because there was a lot of of drains put in because again, it was kind of wet. There was only six rows of trees between each drain. So we ended up going just one in six in those areas. So we were just literally going in the middle between the drains. And we then abandoned some of those racks. So we were, we got a thinning in, and then we abandoned some of them. And then in other places, we did one in seven. Think there was a couple of spaces with place. We might have even done one in eight. So it's, I suppose that's kind of a big point that I kind of want to make about continuous cover forestry is that it's not, you know, prescriptive thing. It's so when you're managing a conifer monoculture for a clear fell, it's all really quite similar. So you do your first thinning, and you'd expect a certain amount of timber out, and your second thinning, do you know it's kind of because it's a uniform forest, so you can kind of predict your outcomes. And if you know your what your yield class is, you can figure out kind of what you'd expect at each thinning, whereas with CCF, it's constantly responding to what's there. So you just, you apply measures that suit the site. So every thinning is different depending on the site, you know? So we probably, we went light on the first thinning in that we didn't do much selection, and then we just had our second thinning. But it's really, I suppose, like we've kind of one and a half thinnings done now at this stage, do you know, because we didn't want to do, like, yeah, a full second thinning on it because we think we were afraid we take out too much timber in one go because of the whole stability issue. So we're going to go back in again in four years, which is quite quickly, do you know? So we're going to do little and often. So I wouldn't want anyone to think of that's the volume you get from a first inning on a CCF. It all depends on the site. Do you know? And it's because the whole thing is about that we want to keep this forest standing. Just do a bit, see how the forest responds, adapt to that, and do it again. Because, you know, you're not working to an end point. The first thinnings that we did, we took out about, so said, about 13 hectares of Norway, and we took out about 575 ton out of the conifers. So it's, I suppose, that is quite similar to a first thinning. And I suppose a little maybe light on first thinning in, if you would, in if it was, you know, we were managing it for on a clear, foul model. And then this thinning that we did was about the same ton as well that we took out, but a much higher proportion of palette was a 50 pulled 50% pulled 50% pallet. So basically, we're like, we're targeting bigger, badly formed trees to focus on the quality. And it happens that, in my sight, the quality is in actually the smaller trees. But that's okay, I've got quality, and they'll come on a bit later.

Dermot McNally 13:24
I'll get back to my chat with olive levy shortly. But if you're in the market for forestry lands, go to forest sales.ie. Where you'll find forest for sale across the country, and all the information you need to make a decision that's forest sales.ie. Now let's get back to the conversation with olive Levy, okay, so as of autumn 24 I think you've done your second thin.

Olive Leavy 13:49
So we're only just finished, and it's not, I wouldn't even call it a full second thinning. They were kind of one and a half, so we're going slowly with it. But it's Norway not growing. There's, you know, some areas are growing really well. Others are much slower. You know, we don't have a big top high, you know, it's really come on. It's amazing how it just kind of seems to just shoot or be like even in this space, from the thinning to now, I've seen such growth rates. And just kind of, the trees seem to be able to, like, the crowns, look much healthier in places than they had been, do you know? So, yeah, it's amazing how quickly it can respond. Okay?

Dermot McNally 14:27
And let's, can we go back to the ash area then and tell me, when was the ash and the sycamore intimate? Were they mixed through each other? And when you took out the ash, what did you replace it

Olive Leavy 14:40
with, yeah, the ash, the heartbreaking ash. We had a lovely stand of ash, like dad had done. I'd spent a huge amount of time pruning them and, like, clean stems, like, really, really good. We kind of had smaller blocks that were around a. Lot of it was around the edges of the forest, because that was kind of the best ground. And I got some Hurley butts out. So we kind of started The Hurleys maybe in 2022 and so, yeah, I was kind of seeing crowd the crown, losing the crowns from about 2019 2021, each year, progressively, you could see the disease progress in the stand. And got some Hurley butts out. And then, when he was there, we marked over 100 trees that were suitable, that had suitable butts. But once we started, he started taking them out. There was honey fungus that had got in. Because the trees were sick, the honey fungus was getting in and was staining the timber. And although it doesn't damage the timber, they just can't sell it to the at a premium price, like the hurting makers don't want it because it stained. So he ended up only taking 30 butts out of it, which was really, you know, a bit disappointing even, that there was butts there, but it was just with the honey fungus. And then we took, we cleared. So I had been thinning the ash, and I was using that timber. I had a small firewood business, which I can tell you a little bit about in a minute, but so I had been tipping away at it, and then I taken some out. And then it was in November 23 we cleared the whole side like that last 12 months, like there was no crayons left, and it was getting very, very dangerous in under them, you know, would stop. And I was like, right, we need to just get this out. But there was the timber. There was still value in the timber. So I was like, let's just try and get this out as quickly as possible. You know, sold all of it for firewood, which was, you know, good, got a little bit back from that, and then we planted with a native woodland mix. So my thinking behind that is, Oh, lovely, okay, yeah, because it's that front edge as well. It's kind of, when you come into the forest, it's the first thing that you see. So to kind of get that nice mix of trees, and then you move into kind of, I suppose, the more commercial blocks, in a way. And so to just have that transition from open field into that native woodland mix, and then into the more commercial blocks was kind of the idea. And then, because it was kind of, you know, smaller, narrower, it kind of, I think, will lend itself, just from an esthetic point of view. And now there is, of course, oak, so there will be some timber value in it, but it is mainly to have that kind of biodiversity corridor around the edge of the forest, and for that transition from, you know, open farmland into kind of the forest. So that was kind of the idea behind that. And then also as a seed source, you know, increasing the species diversity that we'll have in the future. You know, a big bank of

Dermot McNally 17:47
seed, lovely. So are deer an issue? Where you are olive,

Olive Leavy 17:52
I am so lucky. I mean, we have been looking so we had no gray squirrel when we planted first, so there's been no damage to the sycamore. Like gray squirrel have really done, like we're really seeing it now, like they did a lot of damage back on particularly Sycamore, and when it was planted in the early noughties, and we had no gray squirrels, so the sycamore is fine. And then I have seen a stag a couple of times in there, and I've seen a little bit of damage, but really it is nothing like compared to Wicklow Kilkenny care, you know, the hot spots where there is nothing growing. I have regeneration, actual regeneration everywhere. So it's I'm very vigilant. I'm always watching them. I haven't seen any tracks for the at least a year. So I think it could have just been a lone stag that was kind of roaming. So monitoring that carefully, that's the biggest barrier to CCF in Ireland, our deer.

Dermot McNally 18:52
Am I right in saying you're next door to another forest?

Olive Leavy 18:56
Yes, it's quite a big block of forestry. I'd say 150 hectares in total. Maybe there's kind of three owners. We are on the edge. We've got 20 hectares, and then 5060, in the middle, and then another bit on the end. So, yeah, over 100 so, I mean, it would be a perfect place for a deer to settle. But at the minute, you know, maybe we're on the edge, I don't know. I mean, yeah, we'll see it's something that we're monitoring. But, yeah, we're very lucky that don't have deer, don't have an anti invasive species, don't have, like, Rhododendron, don't have Rhododendron, don't have, you know, Laurel. We actually have red squirrel now in it, we have foxes, rabbits, pine Martens, everything the

Dermot McNally 19:41
next thing I wanted to ask you was, olive, am I right in saying that you use the opportunity of reform in the ash area to get some of the family involved? Yes.

Olive Leavy 19:51
So there was one corner quite near the entrance, small, little rectangle. And I thought this is the perfect place, because it's. Near the entrance. It's not too big to get the niece. I don't have children, but I've got seven, well, six at the time, and the baby niece was almost about to be born, so we got them up. It had been mounded, and we got them up, and it got me got them to plant. So about 120 trees in total. So all of them planted trees, and that's there. I'm calling it nibblings nook. So nibbling is there. It's like sibling only for nieces and nephews. And they, yeah, very good. Love it, like, it's amazing to see. And it's like, they get so excited when to see how much the trees have grown over them, because, like, they it was, it's only 18 months ago, not even that they planted them and they were only, there were only little twigs, and now there's something that's twice their height, and it's they get so excited when they see it. And you know, hopefully that then will become a little education corner as well, because it's got easy access. There's a real nice mix of species in there. It's by far the best well looked after corner. It's very easy for me to manage it, so I'm always just making sure the trees are coming along and you know, so that'll be a really interesting little corner to try and get them involved and interested in trees and nature.

Dermot McNally 21:14
One or two last questions in the ash then, are you struggling with briars? And have you a much volunteer Sycamore coming up and ruining your nice native woodland?

Olive Leavy 21:24
Oh, the briars. The Briars are an absolute nightmare. And it's not the briars, per se, it's the cleaver, you know, the sticky All right, Rob and run the hedge, or there's loads of different and sticky back. You know, the trees can get through the briers, and actually, the Briars can protect them for against deer. Do you know, deer browsing and stuff, but it's the sticky black that is growing over the Briars and then just pulling the trees down. So we've so many hours of maintenance gone in. I mean, I'm very hands on anyway, so I mean, the forester, like there is part of the scheme has a maintenance grant, but in no way will cover the amount of hours that will be need, that is needed to manage. And this is a big problem with the ash, is the reestablishment, you know, with the vegetation that's there. So, I mean, I I try and keep on top of it, but it is, you know, we had to spray. I really didn't want to use chemicals, but there was just no other way for us to just get them down. In the first year, like 90% of them were hidden, and so we had to spray. And then now a lot of them are getting up over them, but I think we'd have another, I'd say spring. We need another really hard goal. We won't use chemicals, though. I'll go in with trimmer and stuff, but now I can see where the trees are, you know, but we're we've been in like the forester has had a guy in as well. So between a site, we're really working hard at it to try and get them up. It's a big problem, especially for people who don't have time to go in and manage them like that. Re establishment after the ash is, is, is, it is very, very challenging, because there is, you know, the briers had really come because there was no canopy for two years, so the buyers were there already. And once Briars are in, it's very difficult to get them out, and

Dermot McNally 23:22
very difficult. Yeah, really difficult.

Olive Leavy 23:26
But, no, it's kind of the cup. A couple of areas that are are quite poor that we're going to have to replant again, but overall, the majority of it now, I mean, it was worth that effort at the start. It's looking like almost over it over the the height of the briars, you know? So once the leader is over, you're okay. The sticky back was just pulling them down, do you know? So, yeah, but a lot of scrapes there last

Dermot McNally 23:54
Yeah, the spray is something no one wants to do, but the reality is it's, it's often necessary if you want to trees to grow. And I suppose we can satisfy ourselves that it's a one off intervention that won't happen again, if at all, especially in a CCF for us. So it's a sacrifice.

Olive Leavy 24:14
Yeah, that was the compromise we have to make. Like, you know, there often are times you have to make a compromise and kind of, you know, weighed it up and to get to get it established is far, you know, in my opinion, more important than a one off use very carefully applied targeted weed control to get them established. So, you know, that's the decision.

Dermot McNally 24:34
Yeah, olive before we come up to the present moment, I want to ask you about the any effects of storms in the January of this year, January 25 any wind blow, a significant wind blow. Or did that change your view on how things had to happen going forward?

Olive Leavy 24:54
Yeah, yeah. So we've so we did have a little bit now, I'm very conscious that people have had full. Forest destroyed, you know, and kind of it has been really decimating for a lot of people, but we did have some damage. So the ash was kind of on the westerly prevailing side, you know. So it was acting as a windbreak. So when the ash came out, that raw edge of conifers was never exposed to wind like so even prior to that storm, that age, every wind event, we'd lose a few trees and because of its stability, do you know? Yeah, and then at the storm, we lost kind of a biggish pocket near the front, the whole edge has crept back, and then another block of conifer that was kind of at the end of a field. And it was, it was really interesting that bit. So it's kind of this kind of a tillage field that the forest kind of goes around, and on the top bit of it, it's nearly all broad leaf. So there's beach and Sycamore, and then there was a block, like a triangle in the middle of the middle of it, of conifers, and then broad leaves. Again, every single conifer went down, and not one broad leaf. So just the in that entire block of conifers, and not one, one, sorry, one broadleaf was came down, but it was pulled down like it was, you know, you can see where it was pulled down by a conifer. So I thought that was just really, really interesting. Just, I suppose the broad leaves didn't have crayons. They're different root architecture. I suppose it just reaffirmed in my head the idea of mixing species that one can give stability to another. You know, we got that cleaned up when we were doing the thinning, so we need to go in and under plant or replant that. And then we're actually gonna under plant a few rows of that exposed edge with birch. Just put birch in, because there should still be enough light and that we didn't do any thinning around it, because it's so unstable, and but we're, we're just going to see, to see if that might help just anchor that edge a little bit better. And then we're going to plant it to kind of try and kind of and with some fast growing species in front of it to kind of, you know, act as a better windbreak and kind of make it kind of varied edge to help disperse the wind on it. So yeah, this winter, of those that could get replanted, and then we had quite a lot of snap throughout. So Norway has a tendency of snapping anyway, and but I suppose the thing that out of that, it means I now have quite a lot of standing Deadwood. So we made sure that when we were doing the thing, that none of that that got cleaned up. So we, you know, and, like, some of it snapped quite high. So we have these nice standing dead wood now. And my big thing is, I would love to get woodpeckers in so there are woodpeckers in mock more we are Muk mean, which is maybe about 25 kilometers away. So I'm like, if I create the habitat, I might get woodpeckers in. So that's kind of the idea standing dead was really important for the biodiversity. A storm created it, so we're just leaving it there, and, you know, rather than cleaning it up. So I suppose, out of everything, I always try and find silver lining. So there's a little bit of a silver lining in that to know that there's I might get my woodpeckers sooner.

Dermot McNally 28:29
Yeah, yeah, hopefully. So also, olive Can you explain what ring barking is and why you did it in the forest? Yeah.

Olive Leavy 28:39
So Ring Ring barking is a technique to create standing Deadwood, really. So you remove, as it is, a ring of bark the whole way around a tree, and that stops the nutrient flow. So all the nutrients in a tree flow within the first couple of millimeters under the bark, and the rest, then inside, is actually timber fibers. So it's a way of killing the tree and creating standing Deadwood. Now, because of soil sensitivities and stuff in our site, we're very careful of where, you know, there were pockets, areas, little corners that we didn't want the machine just driving through. So there was basically, there are areas that are inaccessible. So I'm using ring barking there to thin to it's a way of thinning as well, because as that trees dies, that crown will be gone. So you're releasing the trees around it, and you're creating standing Deadwood. So it's not something like, you know, it's a very light prescription, like, I think I've done 10 trees maybe, so far. I probably do maximum 20 in the entire what, 1314, hectares. Like, you don't go around crazy, you know, and like, there are trees that we would have marked to be removed in the thinning, but just the machine didn't get to them. So it's a way of creating space for the other trees around it and creating standing Deadwood and. And it's something I can do then as well. So rather than just like, pushing the machine through an area that the soils really aren't stable enough, but we're still thin in the forest, so that's kind of the idea behind it. Fantastic.

Dermot McNally 30:13
And on your recent field, I'm told that you've explained one or two measures for water protection, and you've kind of touched on them there, but maybe you could just mention specifically why it matters, the things you've done, and how that's keeping your water clear that comes out of the forest.

Olive Leavy 30:30
Then, yeah, well, I mean, I mean, this is, it's standard practice, and it has been, really, you know, implemented in majority, you know, 99% of forest operations now adhere to all, you know, water protection, but it is really, really important. So I mean, like, we have setbacks, so like, no machinery goes within the water courses, you know, within the proximity. And even, like, you know, we, you know, we would definitely ensure that the machines you know, don't go close, you know. And those areas actually, there's interesting habitat around, like, we have a couple of drains that, you know, there's kind of a lot of Willow growing around and stuff. So, kind of, like in the middle of the conifers. So we just don't let the machines go in and just leave those areas, you know, as I was saying, there's one corner that's very, very soft that, you know, really, the trees haven't done particularly well. It was always a problem area, even as when it was in grassland. And so we're just going to leave that for nature that corner. I'll use ring barking to kind of tin some of the timber out, but there's birch. There's a lot of birch after coming through in that area. But, you know, protecting water is like, essentially, like, our water quality is really, really poor, and forestry can actually, is actually a great way of protecting water, slowing, and, you know, the flow of water down, like in Trent heavy rain, it helps to slow, it hitting the ground, absorbing the water, slowing, just slowing the whole cycle down, reducing soil erosion and again. So we just need to make sure that our operations don't undo any of that good work. And that's what CCF is all about, protecting soil and water, because these are permanent forests, so you don't want to damage either of those. You have to work with nature the whole time. That's the whole philosophy. Is, you know, you protect soil, protect water, protect biodiversity, protect habitat and while producing timber. So that's kind of the whole idea.

Dermot McNally 32:31
Let me pause the interview for a second to ask you this, could your business benefit from increased profile in the forestry sector? Well, if so, maybe you should be advertising on Ireland's only dedicated forestry podcast, with new episodes coming out every two weeks. So get in touch with forestry now to see how we can make it work for you. Back to the chat. I should have asked you when I mentioned the neighbors, but you mentioned adjoining forestry. You know, you're explaining how some areas of the forest that you weren't expecting maybe took some wind damage, and how exposed areas this stuff can blow down. Have you any idea how the forest next door is being managed? And have you any concerns that, let's say, for sake of argument, a sudden clear fell there along your boundary could open up the a different side of your forest to wind that it hasn't experienced yet.

Olive Leavy 33:22
That is a huge concern, and that is something that's out of control, but is a huge I mean, if the forest next door to me was clear felled, it would really, um, compromise my forest, you know, just the risk for wind. But I am actually the that forest is about 60% Sycamore, with some Norway and other species. So I, I don't know why you'd be clarifying Sycamore at this stage anyway. So until my forest gets its own in, you know, internal stability, you know, through mixed species. And I'm hoping that it is actually up for sale at the minute. And I know, you know, it's a large it's 155 acres. So I've kind of, anyone I know, kind of who is into CCF, and kind of is into acquiring bigger forests. I'm like, did you know about this forest? Because I would love It'd be amazing if that was a CCF forest beside us as well, and we'd have this big block of CCF forestry in the Midlands. Do you know? But we have to wait and see. But just the species composition. I mean, if it was, if it was all conifer, then I would be very concerned. But because there's, you know, it's, majority of it is broad leaves. I'm kind of a little bit more reassured that it will be there for a long time.

Dermot McNally 34:49
Yeah, no, very good. Now we'll talk about with the thinning in August. Just finished, you're, you're officially involved in the CCF. Of program, is that, right? That's funded through the government,

Olive Leavy 35:04
yeah, so I got involved in so it's called the WIS, the woodland improvement scheme, and the CCF portion. So I, kind of, I the first iteration of that was just at the woodland improvement scheme. So the broad leaves went into that in 2019 I think it was, but we didn't actually draw down any payments out of that. So it's a little complicated. And then we put the whole forest in under the West CCF scheme when it was launched in 2020, in two blocks, because you could only do 10 hectares at a time. So we'll put one block. So anyway, so basically, the whole forest is now under that scheme. So that scheme, it's, it's amazing, really, like so for so tree marking, under planting, pruning, if I need to get some fences repaired, you know, potentially do a little bit of infrastructure. There's a whole suite. There's a long, long list of things that can be like tree guards, if you need, of things that this can pay for. So at the moment, now, if you were to go into it, it's 1200 euro per hectare in three payments over 12 years, and that is for work done. But they also have, including now an ecosystem service payment to owners of 150 euro per hectare per year for seven years. So it's like a little sweetener in the pot because of the ecosystem services that these forests are going to deliver. Is something for the owner in that but it means that all the work that's going on, the marking, everything that we're doing, I you know, it comes at no cost to me. And it means that all the timber, the value of the timber that's been harvested, comes straight to me as an owner. So for me, for anyone, I mean, if you broad leaves, it's a no brainer. And even if, you know, definitely, if you were thinking of going down the CCF route, absolutely it's, you know, it's a great scheme. So, yeah, I would have nothing but good things to say about that scheme. It's, it's a really good initiative, actually, from the government.

Dermot McNally 37:15
Have you a crystal ball now, olive and tell us what you're planning to use that government funding to actually do in the forest? You've explained some other things. But how can you see the forest developing? And I know that the plan will change. I think you mentioned you've done a little bit of under planting in the conifer area already. Is that right?

Olive Leavy 37:37
Yes, yeah. So as I was saying, there was one area in particular where the the we had, like, six rows between the drain, like between the shores that were put in, and we abandoned some racks. So we thinned one in six in there, and then abandoned some of those racks. And we under planted those racks with western red cedar. And it's flying. It's doing so well. And it's a gorgeous tree. It's quite shade tolerant, so it's happily happy. Now, of course, all trees need some light, but it's happy enough in under, you know the high Norway spruce, it's tipping along real nicely. And then we kind of just randomly planted around. You usually wouldn't under plant out of first pinning. And, do you know, because there just really isn't enough light. It's kind of, you know, not the best use of it's kind of after the second hitting, but just in my situation, it's the way we, you know, ended up managing. But also what I really wanted, like, I was pushing it was, like, I want to bring in new species. Now, I understand the race, you know, I understand they might thrive. But as it turned out, it was a good decision for our site.

Dermot McNally 38:46
Had you much maintenance to do there? Or was it a nice, clean, still shaded rack that left that it was pretty easy to get them up and running.

Olive Leavy 38:56
Zero maintenance on the western red cedar again, I think because you ran under the conifer, you like, there was no Briars there. The vegetation is, you know, I mean, the racks are green and over, but it's not massively competing. And they've really been able to get get ahead, and that they went in as plugs as well. I mean, see the Western cedar is always in a plug, so I think that might have just helped them get going. Now you can see in other areas where they were planted and they didn't get enough light, and they're still sitting there's really small, but they're still green. So I think hoping, after this thinning, when they get a bit more light, they'll shoot off. So we might do another bit of under planting. So what we've used the scheme four is the marking on this second inning. So that was a big part. So that's where it was actually Sean Hoskins, who works with Manus Crowley, came in, and I actually marked with him as well. You know, I've done some courses on tree marking, and to actually just have the opportunity to do it in your own forest with a forester was too it was too good to pass off. So the two of us did it together. It was just the best learning experience for me. And that's where you walk around every square inch of the forest, and you mark the trees for removal, so you identify your quality trees. The trees with, you know, straight bark, light, branching, healthy crown, they don't need to be the biggest trees. It's literally looking at form. So what is going to be your future timber trees, your timber production, and then you mark what trees you want to take out around that to release that tree. So that's what we did. It took, took five days, the two of us. A lot of the grant went on that we're going to do some high pruning on both the conifers and the broad leaves. So dad had done a lot of pruning when the trees were small. So it's going around, kind of those again, those quality trees, the ones with straight joint is taking off, kind of some of the higher branches to get that really nice, long, clean stem of timber, and we'll do that in the conifers as well, but only on the quality trees. Like there's no point pruning a Do you know a tree that's going to go for pallets or something? Do you know it's, it's only for Europe? What will be so long? So, I mean, that's, that's quite a big job, doing that road maintenance, maybe that we're looking at some maybe some of the fencing needs a bit of repair, So little things like that. So that's kind of and then, of course, the next thinning that the marking, again, that's kind of the biggest kind of cost, is getting the marking done before the next thinning as well.

Dermot McNally 41:33
Can I ask y'all of who was the contractor that came in to work? Did they understand the system that you're trying to work in, because sometimes the contractors are very used to the thin to clearfell model, but maybe aren't as familiar with the thin to CCF model, yeah.

Olive Leavy 41:52
So I mean, again, I was very lucky, so Manus works a lot with Liam Bren. And so Liam is actually a pro Silvie, the previous Chair of pro Silva Ireland. So pro Silva, just quickly to explain, is an organization that promotes and educates on continuous cover forestry. And I now actually work with them. So it's a small little family like I came to Manus completely separately. In the Manus was like, oh, you know, we're looking to bring in someone to help with some of the administration, and that's kind of how I got involved. So Liam specializes in contracting on CCF sites. I mean, of course, he works on all sites, but and completely understands what we're trying to achieve. So before even our first pinning, Liam Manus and myself walked the entire forest, and I suppose they learned what I wanted to get out of it. I understood kind of what the limitations are, what are the risk areas. And do you know, is this collaboration? And that's, I see it very much as a collaboration between the three, the three parties, the contractor, the forester and myself. You know, they're part of this forest as much as I am as well. Do you know they're Dave is such an important role, and I can see they really care about the forest, you know, which is really special as well. So we've built up that relationship. And so, yeah, so Liam does all the work, and his team do all the work there, and they, you know, completely understand. So I'm very lucky in that, but I suppose they can see my passion for CCF, and it's kind of we're all working together on this, on this project.

Dermot McNally 43:29
There's another question I want to ask you on the forest, and then we'll kind of wind up and you can explain anything else that's going on. But have you seen much natural regeneration happening now in the conifer area, especially because we understand that there's lots happening in the reform of the ash. What's happening under the conifer? Is there anything coming up?

Olive Leavy 43:53
Yeah, so this is kind of the biggest surprise. So we've got these veteran beech trees, as I mentioned, and they're throwing out a lot of seed, and under the sycamore in particular, the beach is thriving. And actually, I had the forestry inspector in one day, and he was like, Oh, so you under planted here? I'm like, No, that's all regen, and it gets up to my shoulder. So we've got this lovely kind of understory of beach coming along there. And since we thinned, I'm finding oak saplings everywhere, like and there's no oak tree. Yeah, there's no oak tree in the forest. There's none in the hedgerows, in the fields around I've asked the farmer the neighbors, like, Do you have any oak trees? And he's like, No, in so I think it's about a kilometer the nearest oak tree. Now we have Jays nesting. We've got two nests or areas that I'm sure the Jays are nesting in, and red squirrel and I mean, crows will also bring in acorns. So I've got a whole team of little foresters planting acorns, planting oak. I mean, a lot of the. These trees that are coming now, they're not going to develop into, you know, pole trees, because we still don't have the light levels, right? But it's telling me the potential of the site. You know, that in when, when we in another couple of thinnings, these will start getting oak coming naturally, and then we also get seen a lot more birch. So there is birch kind of in the site anyway, and it's coming on, seeing lot of Hawthorne, Holly and Sycamore is coming as well. And so a lot of the time I'll actually you were asking about where the ash was cleared. There is a lot of Sycamore coming. So I snap, I just have to keep just snapping the sycamore back until the species I want get ahead of us, do you know, and kind of crowd it out. That's the only way, you know. Just have to keep managing that. I do love Sycamore, but it just, it can take over. So it's just a case of and that's easy to manage, just by snapping snapping back. So, yeah. So I mean, there's huge potential. That's the way I look at it. Is there's huge potential in this site, and if we can just keep it starting in the next period of time. Do you know this is kind of a high risk time, because the trees are getting tall. We, you know, we're working on increasing stability. There's a lot of Willow as well there. So, you know, that's good for stability. And so, you know, we're going gently. We'll see how it is. And you know, we just have to wait and see what nature does, you know, respond to that

Dermot McNally 46:29
lovely Well, is there anything else about the forest that I should have asked you, and I didn't ask you, you did mention, for instance, the fire log business?

Olive Leavy 46:39
Oh, yes, yes. Bit of a mad idea I had, yeah. So I started thin, and then I'm like, What am I gonna do with the thinnings? And again, I think it was just kind of encouragement. There's a few kind of people in the forest owner group who were doing firewood, some for themselves, some for sale. And I had a bit of money when I came back from the UK. So I says, right, I'm going to buy a fire processor. And I started at that, and I set up a little business. And, I mean, it kept me going. I wouldn't say I made much money out of it, but I did really, really enjoy it. People really like the firewood that I had. You know, I was a mixture of ash and Sycamore, which is actually a really nice combination, because the sycamore burns bright and hot quite fast, and then the ash kind of gives you that longevity in the fire. So it's actually a nice mix in the fireplace. And it was actually great because it was during covid, so I could still go out and do deliveries, because it was an essential service. And, you know, people would be waiting for you to come, and you'd stand and you chat for half an hour. So, you know, because it was a lot of elderly people I was delivering to. So that was, that was really an amazing time, actually, and it was great that I had the business. But then about two years ago, kind of demand was growing, and I didn't have really a huge amount of equipment for lifting the logs into the processor. I was doing that myself, which not necessarily a great idea, yeah. And then I just was working, just working out I would have to invest quite a significant amount of money to get the equipment I needed to kind of build the business. And then I got the job with pro silver Ireland, and I was also working with Irish forest owners as well. So I made the decision to stop doing the firewood and kind of go more into the education space and administration, which is more kind of the skills, you know, that I came from, I worked in editing before, so on science communication, so it kind of using those skills. So that was, that was the firewood business, yeah.

Dermot McNally 48:54
So olive Have you any advice for aspiring forest owners?

Olive Leavy 48:58
I think the main piece of advice that I would give anyone who has forestry, or is interested in getting into forestry, is to spend time in your forest. Well, this, particularly if you have the forest, I think that's the biggest that's the most important first step. You need to know your forest. You need to know what you have in there. And the more time you spend in the forest, the more I think you'll realize the multiple benefits that it has. It's a fantastic place, just for your own head to spend time in, but even when it comes to selling your timber, managing your forest, if you've spent time in a Juno where the you know the value, you know what you have, you know potential pitfalls, areas of your forest that you know, maybe you want to exclude machinery from all that kind of stuff. So I think a big thing that has happened in Ireland is that forest owners haven't engaged hugely with their forest. It was kind of something that you planted it down the back of the farm and you never really went into it, but it really is part of your farming. And. A prize or, you know, it's it, the more time you spend in it, the more you get out of it, both financially and personally. So that would be the one bit of advice I would give,

Dermot McNally 50:09
perfect olive and then finally, the last question I have here is maybe you could tell us a little bit about the Monon Aquila initiative that you're involved in.

Olive Leavy 50:18
Yes, thanks, Dermot, so the Monon Aquila is kind of a group that myself and Marina Conway, who is a forester, one of the few female foresters in Ireland, have kind of started initiated in the last kind of couple of months. So we got to know each other through attending meetings. Often we would be the only two women in the room, and we became friends. And you know, through conversations, you know, we both feel passionate about empowering women and engaging more women in forestry. We said we would see if we could kind of do something about it. And the forestry promotion fund opened this year, and we said we'd put in a proposal, and which we were successful with. So the project is, it's still in the early days. It's we did a survey, and we were hoping for maybe 100 respondents. We had 251 I think it is we're at now, which was huge. You could see the amount of time people spent in submitting their answers on it. They're so open, honest, passionate, and really, there's so many women out there who want to get involved and kind of be more engaged, be more visible, and I suppose, help support other women. You know, a big thing is, how do we get young girls and young adults, both male and female, into forestry as an industry, and then, you know, how do we raise the profile of women and ensure women are included in every discussion about forestry and all policy? So they're kind of the two themes we're kind of running with. At the moment, we're going to have a couple of in person events, and that's really just to bring women together and to see where we can go. Because, you know, as much as Marina and I are passionate about it, it's not our, you know, it has to be about all women. And so we want to see if we can get kind of a core group together that can bring this forward. So that's where we're at with that. But yeah, no, it's been really positive, and it's been great to just see how many women are out there working in forestry and are passionate about trees and forests and wanting to get involved? So that's amazing.

Dermot McNally 52:28
Yeah, brilliant. Okay, and it ties in with something I'm hearing as well about succession, because we have a lot of farm owners and they don't have a son who's interested. There's a daughter, and it's just a little bit more challenging, perhaps, for girls and ladies to get involved. So this probably ties in,

Olive Leavy 52:46
yeah, and I think it's all just about visibility. There are a huge number of female forest owners out there, and it's just about, I suppose, that visibility and showing that it is possible, you know, I think forestry is a great you know, I think for every succession planning on every farm, I think forestry should be discussed. It may not work for everybody, of course, but I think it should always be included in that conversation. Think it's really important that we do because, I mean, for me, the reason I'm at home in rural Ireland working the land is because of the forestry. I have no interest in kind of more traditional agriculture, you know, I don't want that tie of having to look after animals, having to get loans from the banks, that lifestyle is not for me, whereas forestry gives me that way of staying connected being in rural Ireland, you know, producing a crop from the land, a product from the land, that is essential, you know, to human existence, and we need timber while also caring for biodiversity. So, you know, forestry can, depending on on what way your succession is looking, can be a great addition into the farm that will keep the family involved who may not, if you know, in traditional agriculture. So I think it all ties in, you know. And look anything to promote forestry and to kind of show people the potential that forestry has in Ireland and how multifunctional and diverse it can be. I'm interested in all of that.

Dermot McNally 54:12
Okay, well, listen olive thanks very much for doing the interview with me. It's much appreciated.

Olive Leavy 54:18
You're very welcome. Thank you. It was a pleasure.

Dermot McNally 54:23
That's it for this podcast. Feel free to comment or subscribe for more episodes. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai