Forestry Now

speaker-0 (00:01.816)
Welcome to Forestry Now, where we explore the forces impacting profitable and sustainable management of commercial forests and natural woodlands. I'm Dermot McNally. Today I speak with Mark Macaulay from Forest Industries Ireland. We discuss the positives and negative aspects of forestry in the past, as well as the size and benefit of the industry we now have. I ask Mark about environmental and social concerns opponents of forestry have, a further common criticism.

Is that Ireland's conifer forests produce poor timber, so we address that, and Mark explains the many uses homegrown softwoods are put to. Finally, we discuss why all landowners should consider planting trees and about the supports the government offer for establishment and management. So, without further delay, let's hear from Mark Macaulay. Okay, well listen Mark, thanks a million for joining me.

speaker-1 (00:57.56)
Hmm. Nice to be here.

speaker-0 (00:59.17)
Maybe you'd start off by introducing yourself and your role within Forest Industries Ireland, please.

speaker-1 (01:04.61)
Yeah, so I'm the director of Forest Industries Ireland, which is a trade association in IBEC. So we represent the whole forestry and timber products sector. So we would have a range of member companies who are with us and who we represent, all the way from your very small forestry company who's helping farmers to plant new forests and to manage their forests, all the way up through the big sawmills.

All around the country, we have we have sawmills who are converting that Irish timber into sawn timber, your your two by fours for construction and all the other pallet products and packaging products. So we represent all of those companies and some of their your timber products companies who are making your your fencing or your garden sheds and all of these sorts of things. And then Queelchia, the state forestry company, is also a member of ours. So we really represent the broad spectrum of both the forestry side.

And the timber and timber products side. Perfect.

speaker-0 (02:01.706)
Okay. And maybe then just to give me an example of a few projects FFI are involved in, generally speaking.

speaker-1 (02:08.856)
Well, we would say we have two main pillars really. The first is to increase the afforestation rate. So we do a tremendous amount of work on trying to improve the government's forestry program and the afforestation schemes and encouraging farmers to look at the option of planting forests on some of their land and really, you know, improving the regulation of the forestry side, which is also a key driver of whether we're going to get those afforestation numbers that we're looking for.

people will be aware that we're only planting about two thousand hectares of new trees each year at the moment, whereas the the government target is is eight thousand hectares. It's not that long ago, you know, a decade ago we were planting six thousand hectares a year. So we're all the way down to two thousand. So we've a problem there. We're storing up a problem for the future in terms of not planting any many new forests. And then our other main pillar is around the timber product side. So we're encouraging people to build more with wood.

put in place government policies to to to build with wood and to to move more of our construction sector and our residential building in particular towards timber frame and towards building with wood and building with Irish wood. And we run a range of projects around that information campaigns. We provide a lot of very detailed technical information to the trade and to architects and engineers and people in the building trade around the specification of wood and how to design with wood.

And we promote it. Also, we ran a project recently with with some of the universities for their engineering and architecture students to encourage them to think about wood as a design material and as a construction material. And we ran it, we ran the competition. We got some tremendously interesting entries there around new community centers and various other all types of projects really, which could be built with with Irish timber. So those are the sort of things we do. It's primarily, yeah, around the

We want to see more new forests planted. That's that's crucial to the future timber supply. And look, we have a lot of timber already at the moment. All those forests we planted back in the eighties and nineties, which is when we did a lot of our planting in Ireland, those are all mature now. So we do have quite a lot of timber, a growing supply of timber coming our way right now. And we want to make sure that that's used properly.

speaker-0 (04:30.872)
We know the public understand that we need to grow our own timber. And yet there's also there's often a a gap between what they think we should grow in terms of species and how they think we should manage it. So just to talk back, you were talking about the eighties and nineties, how did we get here that there's a kind of a disconnect there between what industry would like to do and grow and what the public thinks we should do?

speaker-1 (04:53.678)
If you look at the the real research, you know, the heavy research that has been done in forestry in Ireland, the findings are that all of our forests are actually enhancing biodiversity. And different types of forests are obviously optimized for different types of biodiversity. But in fact, all of them are actually positives for biodiversity. And if you think about the sort of monoculture grassland that a lot of the forests are displacing at this stage, the forest, even if it is, you know, a diverse

Partly conifer, partly broadleaf forest, they're much enhanced biodiversity. And many, many more species will live in and around those forests. And if you've got to take into account the forest mar margins, all the drainage in them, you know, all these different elements within the forest, the pathways and the verges to the pathways with with scrub and and bramble and hedgerows, and all these things which are created as part of a living forest, all have different

Habitats are all creating different habitats and creating different biodiversity. So, yeah, I think on the whole, the message back to the industry from the public is extremely positive in that people want more forests. They they recognise the benefits. They recognise the enormous benefits, of course, in terms of carbon sequ sequestration. You know, forestry globally is seen as one of the major tools in terms of combating climate change. Our forests in Ireland contain

Somewhere between 300 and 350 million tons of carbon. And all that carbon before it was in the forests was in the atmosphere. And what we'll do, particularly if you look at the the coniferous forests or sick of spruce forests, and the softwood timber that we produce from those, the carbon that's on the tree in the tree obviously ends up in the timber. And the timber ends up in your house. I'm sitting in a house here.

built in nineteen sixty two. All of that timber that was put into this house in nineteen sixty two is still in this house, the roof, the floor, the walls, et cetera, et cetera. Hopefully not going anywhere soon, because if it's going somewhere, it means my house is falling down. But you know, so the timber locks away that carbon and keeps it keeps it out of the atmosphere, which which is great. So the so actually, again, if you look at the the research done by National University Galway and in Limerick in various other

speaker-1 (07:14.016)
centres for timber research around Ireland. The model that we developed in Ireland around coniferous forests and softwood timber massively outperforms the kind of native woodland model in terms of carbon sequestration and in terms of in terms of performance for the climate. Obviously, listen, our broadleaf forests are wonderful for biodiversity. They're wonderful, you know, elements in our landscape and they're to be encouraged, absolutely.

But the the model that actually performs, you know, three times better than that purely for carbon is the model where you grow trees very, very quickly. Our rotation is very, very short for for sick spruce in Ireland. It's about three times faster we grow these trees than they do in Scandinavia, for example, because our climate is warmer and the trees are growing all year round. But that's the model, that's the model for for the certainly for the for the climate side. Now, sorry, I've wandered around there. No

speaker-0 (08:11.246)
No, no, you're okay. I suppose the only other aspect then is the research is good and it's it's showing a positive attitude to planting new trees and also an understanding that forests are are on the whole a be a good benefit. But we do see fair pushback against the the industry in that sense. And we you mentioned there the elementary school kids. The recent book that was The Amazing Tree, Sitka Spruce, that got a lot of backlash. So

That's the the bit I'm just wondering about. Is there a an outvoiced or a an I suppose an opposition to the the industry in general then that is that isn't representative of what the broader public want? Is that kind of what we can take from the research?

speaker-1 (08:58.232)
I think there are a range of people in in the country who place primacy on biodiversity and would love to see Ireland kind of repopulated with native woodland. And I you can absolutely see, you know, how that is is really, really attractive, you know, and and would provide huge benefits to the country and and certainly to our to our wildlife and to our biodiversity. There is a group who do, as you say, kind of push back against the

coniferous forest, the Sitka spruce forest model. And I think what gets lost a little bit is that, you know, whereas it is nice to think of more native woodlands, what gets lost is is the benefits of all types of forestry. So as I said earlier, all types of forestry the research shows are good for biodiversity in Ireland. And if you if you broaden it out and you include the the the climate change benefits

of coniferous forests and the climate change benefits of locking the carbon away in in long life timber products. You know, obviously climate change is the principal driver of biodiversity loss globally. So we've got to fight climate change. You know, if you're interested in biodiversity and you're concerned about biodiversity loss, you've got to be concerned about climate change. So that's that's a point that I would make. But I think people are, you know,

Generally speaking, you know, in the population as a whole and the people that we meet talking to about the the industry and when we talk to our public representatives about it, whether they be you know counselors or or TDs or whatever, or I talk to the media about it, generally speaking, you know, there's a lot of positivity around the sector. And generally speaking, people do understand that it's important to deliver all of the sustainability benefits of forests and forestry. So your economic sustainability.

your social sustainability as well as your environmental sustainability. And I think our model here stacks up really positively on all those fronts. What makes life a little bit tricky for us at times, I mean I would spend time in in Brussels speaking to the European Commission. I spent a lot of time speaking to you know DG Environment, which is the environmental department, if you like, of the European Commission, as well as as well as their their agriculture people and their and their climate change people. But Ireland is a bit of an outlier.

speaker-1 (11:22.722)
Because if you look across the EU, really no other country is is is engaging in deforestation, the planting of new forests at any scale. Because the model in most countries is, well, we're in the business of managing the forests we already have. Whereas Ireland is is still, you know, in the business of listen, can we can we increase our forest cover? Because we're different. We've twelve percent forest cover in the country. It's essentially the lowest forest cover of any country in the European Union.

If you look at Scandinavia, even if you look at, you know, France, Germany, Austria, Spain, they could have thirty percent plus forest cover. So we're way, way, way behind because obviously all of our native woodland was was felled many, many years ago, clearing the land for agriculture. We'd a major charcoal export business going, you know, three hundred years ago to the UK. A lot a lot is is made of, you know, Irish oak building and building the Royal Navy back in the

to the time of Nelson and such, but basically between between various elements, you know, the Irish Ireland, you know, if you went back to the sort of prehistoric days, was a large oak forest, almost entirely covered in oak trees. So people think of that and they go, okay, well we'd love to see a lot of that come back. But but the point I'm making around Europe is that the Europeans don't really understand the Irish model because with nobody else, nobody else is doing it.

And and we work closely with with European forest industries across all all the different European countries and we're all working together to try and make people understand well listen, if you're growing forests, you then have a timber resource. If you have a timber resource, you're able to build with timber. If you're able to build with timber, you're using less cement, you're you're using less steel. I mean, cement and steel are key components in in terms of the industrial emissions globally.

So what we're saying is, okay, you might have a preference for say planting native woodlands in Ireland, but don't lose sight of some of the benefits you're then gonna lose because you're never gonna you plant a a beautiful new native woodland in Ireland, you never oak trees will will eventually, you know, dominate that in a couple of hundred years' time. You're never gonna cut that down. I mean, it would be mad to cut it down. that would be an incredibly precious resource.

speaker-1 (13:47.468)
for the country. So you're not going to be building in the future out of oak that's taking 200 years to mature. What you are going to be building out of is softwood, which you can grow in Ireland in in 30, 35 years. So we're just encouraging people to see the whole the whole dynamic. And we're always speaking to Brussels, speaking to the European Commission about recognizing the whole dynamic. We get tremendous buy-in from the people in in Brussels in DG, DG climate, DG Clima, who recognize wow, you've got this

This engine for addressing climate change in Ireland that really no other European country has. And they're really encouraging us to do as much of it as possible, as they're doing in China, as they're doing in India. so you know, I suppose you just but different people have different value sets, different people have different priorities. And, you know, I have no difficulty whatsoever with somebody who's prioritizing and valuing native woodland and encouraging that and wants to do that. I think that's a tremendous thing to be doing. But I think

You know, knocking what we're trying to do in terms of growing coniferous trees, I think is a little bit, you know, missing the point or a little bit narrow minded, dare I say. You know, I won't don't want to criticize anybody, but each forest has its value and each forest is delivering different different benefits and all are all are delivering, you know, environmental benefits, all are delivering societal benefits. And and I think it's wrong to be, you know, criticizing certain

certain forestry practices because all all are positive.

speaker-0 (15:20.844)
Yeah, no, no, I I hear you on that. And whatever you think of what happened in the past, we we have we've built an industry now. We've we've skilled foresters, contractors, tree nurseries, we've sawmills. So as you say, we're we're we're bringing that timber into building i in Ireland. So a lot of this is is very positive and that also gets overlooked. And just because you're coming from Ibeck and Forest Industries Ireland, let's talk about the economics of this because the

Conifer plantations are making a big economic contribution then. can you speak a little bit about that, about our turnover employment levels, w where that kind of sits?

speaker-1 (16:01.42)
Yes. So we some years ago conducted an an economic analysis, as you do, of our of our sector. Every business sector is always keen to point out the value that it's contributing to the national economy. The forest sector's contributions is is in the region of two, two point three billion euro per annum. So it's a very, very sizable contribution to the national economy. We're employing or or you would say, you know, we're directly

Several thousand people, but we're creating in the region at 10,000 jobs. If you think about the people actually working in the forestry businesses, in the timber businesses, and all the jobs they they subsequently create down the line in machinery and equipment and drivers and this and that and the other, you know, you're talking about 10,000 plus people. So it's a very significant part of the economy. It's also very much rural based. So it's creating jobs where really we want to be as a society.

Creating jobs. Dublin is pretty full. We're very keen at you know, as a national policy to be creating jobs in the region, and that's what the forest sector is doing. A lot of the value creation is is obviously from the, you know, it's this is a this is a you know a capital intensive business. You know, what what are you doing when you when you're in the forestry timber model? You're investing land, you're investing land to plant the trees, you're investing time to allow those trees to grow, and then you're harvesting that timber.

And sending it to what are very, very kind of modern, state of the art, world class timber processing facilities, which we have around the country. And those companies, the sawmills principally, but other companies as well, are are creating about a a billion euro worth of exports or product each year. And an awful lot of that does go to the export market, principally you know, the main one would be construction timber. So we we would be providing an enormous amount of timber into

construction domestically here in Ireland and in the UK. The UK is the principal market for Irish timber exports because they grow, if you imagine Scotland and Scotland would be the would it be the key location for timber production obviously in the UK. They're growing the same trees and producing the same type of timber, same same grade of trick timber, as we would say, as we do in Ireland. In continental Europe, they tend to be using more

speaker-1 (18:24.568)
Timber from from colder climates, from Scandinavia, from from northeastern Europe, from the Baltic states, etc., from Russia before the current scenario, which is a different type of same species, typically, or similar species, spruce species. Pine as well, but a lot but spruce principally. Because of the colder climate, it's it's stiffer and sort of harder, if you like. So they tend to so our

principal market is is the UK, where they're used to building with our type of timber. And what we're trying to do here is actually we still build an awful lot of our timber frame houses in Ireland with with imported timber, which is interesting and not something we need to continue to do. And a lot of the timber frame companies are very interested in transitioning from what was traditionally Scandinavian timber, which is this more dense product.

So it has different characteristics, as I say. It's just that bit stiffer, et cetera. It doesn't bend as easily when you have it cut to a sort of two by six or two by four, whatever it might be that you're using. But they're interested in transitioning because all of the research has been done now and various demonstration developments have been built. Glenn and Brothers were behind a development up in in Longford, the development of social housing, I think it was development. There's another development in Clundauken that

That Glendons are also supporting and also Quilchea and others are supporting a development in Klondoken now of of more social housing, all with Irish timber, because the research has has been done, all the analysis has been done principally by something called the Timber Engineering Research Group in University of Galway. Did a lot of work saying, right, okay, well if we were gonna displace, build a build a house out of Irish timber instead of, you know, Finnish timber or Swedish timber, what would we have to change?

And basically you're just changing the spacing. So if you imagine you you'd you were building a timber wall and you'd it was it was twenty foot long and and it had let's see the the I'm not an architect, eight uprights in it. You know, you'd instead of putting eight uprights at such and such a spacing, you'd put ten uprights in of Irish timber at a at a narrower spacing, and that would compensate for the lack of stiffness or the different stiffness. So all that research has been done, and it's all, you know.

speaker-1 (20:37.592)
published and and reviewed and now being adopted by the trade to build more with Irish timber. So that's the kind of the the model fundamental of the Irish, you know, business model is Quilchia owns about half of our forests. The other half are owned by in and around twenty-four thousand individual farmers. Both of those groups are producing timber annually. At the moment they're producing about the same amount of logs, shall we say, annually.

Those logs are going to the sawmills. The sawmills are producing a lot of construction timber, but also we've a big pallet industry here. The chairman of Forest Industries Ireland is in the pallet business, CJ Sheeran in in Mount Drath and County Leash. Big manufacturer and exporter of pallets, and then various other packaging and other other, you know, crates and and and all sorts of other applications and garden products and garden sheds and all that sort stuff. So we're taking that that timber output, very fast grown.

So we're very competitive because the raw material is growing very, very quickly here. We've very, you know, mechanized saw mills and they're converting that into products and they're converting into the products that the world needs. And the other thing, just thinking while whilst I think of it, is the OECD, which is basically the the you know, the group of of wealthier countries around the world, has done done done done a lot of research on on timber demand. And they're expecting timber demand to treble by mid century, by twenty fifty. So we're gonna need timber.

And if we're not getting the timber from sustainably managed forests in places like Ireland and elsewhere, then where are we getting the timber from? We're getting the timber from old growth forests. So if we want to protect the old growth forests, whether it be in South America or in Scandinavia or in Russia or anywhere else, we to protect Canada, then you've got to you've got to provide the timber from somewhere because we're going to be using the timber. and arguably we should be using the timber because the timber is displacing other high carbon materials like steel.

So that's a model that we really need to consider at a global level. If we're going to be building out of timber and we want to build more out of timber, we should ideally be doing it from properly managed, sustainable forests, where when you when you cut the timber in Ireland and elsewhere, you must replant the forest. It's a legal obligation. It's an offence not to replant your forest. So we can be assured that all the forests will be replanted, regenerated, and grow the next generation of timber.

speaker-1 (23:06.062)
So that's something we should be we should be doing, I think. And that's the model that Ireland really is is is satisfying. Yeah.

speaker-0 (23:14.294)
No, you're you're right about that, Mark. I I I've come across this in other industries, that it's quite simple to close down an industry domestically because you're not happy your public opinion is against it. But you do have to ask the question, where's it going to be done next? And and what standards will they operate to? And that it's still a massive issue in in parts of the world where, as you say, primary growth, old growth forests are are being cut down. and

But let's move on then to environmental concerns that the public might have. Because again, we're making the case here for Sitka and for planting conifers. We can see that the there's plenty of uses for the timber. But there's still these environmental concerns that come up among those who you know, object to new conifer plantations. And one of the big things is is Clearfell itself, because they may not like it being planted, but once it's there, people I think get used to it and then

Define the aesthetics of a Clearfell visually jarring. But how do we how do we communicate that like Clearfell is is an essential part of how we manage many of these conifer forests. So how do we bring the public around to understanding what's happening there and how it's regulated and how it how important and critical it is to the process?

speaker-1 (24:32.332)
And and you'd have to concede that a very freshly clear felled coniferous section of forest is not the not the prettiest thing you're ever gonna see. I'd I'd say a number of things. First of all, Quilchia has committed to reducing what we call its coop size. So in other words, when it's going in and clearfelling an area, it's reducing the size. So it would actually be economically beneficial and financially beneficial for Quilchia to to be felling bigger lots or bigger coops.

But it no, no, no, people don't love the look of this. So what we're going to do to mitigate some of that look, we're going to be felling in smaller sections. So that, you know, that's a that's a really generous, dare I say, you know, commitment from from Queelchip. But clear felling is is the economically advantageous way to do it. A couple of things I would say. First of all, it it it is it is amazing how quickly those areas green up. So I spend a lot of time walking. I'm a very keen kind of hiker and walker. I spend a lot of tea time, particularly in in

County Wicklow, but also, you know, all around the country walking in our hills. And you and you you're walking through a lot of forested land to access our our hilltops and and our mountainous areas. And you when you do that, you you'll pass through an area and you kind of go, wow, they've cut down this section. But if you go through a couple of years later, it actually greens up. It greens up in a challenging way sometimes for forestry, in that you get a lot of kind of brambles and gorse and all that's got to be be managed to allow the new trees which have been planted to come through again.

But then if you go back through it again, you know, four or five years later, then you can see the the new trees taking off. so it greens up very, very quickly. So it tends to be a short lived thing. The other thing I say is I remember people see somebody calling to my door complaining about a an offshore wind farm that was going be built. and as I spoke to them, you know, they were trying to recruit sort of support for their campaign against this this wind farm. And as I spoke to them, it became clear that their real concern was the visual.

impact. So they were going to be looking out to sea from their from their house near the sea and and they were going to be looking at these windmills. And they didn't want to look at the windmills. And you're kind of going, well I am thinking, well, we need windmills. You know, we need green energy. And okay, you might not want them in your backyard or you might not want to be looking out across your view and having them in your view. But it's it's a visual thing. And I think we need to sort of grow up a bit.

speaker-1 (26:55.232)
And take it on the chin and kind of go, hang on a second. You know, the the planet's fla facing a climate crisis. Deal with the windmills. And I would say similarly, you know, a little bit with the forestry. You know, okay, some trees will be cut down in your area. It's not the end of the world. In two years' time, it'll be it'll be green. Actually, your forest is getting diversified as you're doing that. Also, certainly, you know, most most private forests, at least, until they come to close to Clearfeld stage, don't have a road put in.

But what happens when you're we're gonna clear fell? You've got to put a road in to get the timber out. And what happens with the road? Well, the public get access to the road. Again, mandated under our national forest policy. You have to give public access to our so suddenly the community has somewhere to to take the dog for a walk. And you see that all over the country. I remember having a journalist from The Economist here some years ago when they were doing an article on on the Irish forestry model. And one of the things I said to them, Well, if you're if you're on holidays in Ireland,

And you want to go for a nice long walk with the dog, you're either looking for a beach or you're looking for a forest. Because forests are where you get access to the land. We don't have a right to roam in Ireland. So you're either walking, you know, risking your life walking the highways and byways, or you're looking for the nearest forest. And certainly if it's a Quilchia forest, you'll have a nice, you know, roadway in there to take your dog for a walk, get some exercise, et cetera, et cetera. So the forestry actually opens up access to the land.

The access to our uplands, you know, is typically very, very restricted where there isn't forestry, because it's the forestry that gets you across the land that would otherwise be private and up into the uplands where where it might be a national park area or it might be a commonage or whatever. And and the recreation benefits of forestry are really getting appreciated by people. So, you know, the c the Clearfell is one thing, but there are actually positives that come along, culture.

come along with the clear fell and and I would say, listen, if you have a problem with the way it looks, then you know, give it a year, give it a year and a half, two years, and and it'll look it'll look fine again. and listen, we're trying to do something here. And it's like building a wind farm or something. You know, listen, there are benefits to doing what we're doing.

speaker-0 (29:08.206)
This podcast is kindly supported by the Irish Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. If you're thinking of planting a new forest or keen to access information on financial and technical supports to manage your existing forest, then go to gov.ie forward slash forestry for you. I'll include that link and other critical details about the guest and this topic in the show notes. Now, back to the chat.

The forest is always in transition. There's the couple of years at the start. It starts to thick it up. it becomes a forest then where it's complete canopy cover and then it it has a period where it's just growing on and then it's clear fell. And it's it's a rotation. I I I do think what you said is right. It's you have to concede that visually it doesn't look great, but it is regulated and controlled. And I I also I think it's it's very fair to see what I've seen on the uplands is simply that

You can see after Clearfell where the new mandate on setbacks is being adhered to, so the forest will never again be as close to that pathway you're probably walking. You can see the tubes with the broadleaves and you can see the setback areas either either side of the streams, which may not have been the case when the forest that particular forest was initially planted. So all those things happen at Clearfell. So it's yeah, it's moving on in the right direction.

Okay, well listen, we're we've covered a few of these topics now and and let's move on to the next one. I think you've you've talked about the importance of native trees, and obviously we we can see why conifer trees are so important to our industry and construction. But there is c increasing calls now for all conifer forests to be managed under continuous cover forestry. What's your view on that and and is it realistic?

speaker-1 (31:00.134)
One of the challenges we have with CCF in Ireland is that okay, if you're a large forest owner, you might be able to look at it. But but our actually our average forest size in Ireland is only about six hectares. And it's very challenging to manage six hectares under continuous cover forestry because you're talking about a contractor coming along, inviting the contractor to come along and take a few trees out, you know, or take a couple of hundred trees out one year and come back.

Take a couple of hundred, you know, where you're moving heavy machinery on the back of a truck around the country constantly, and each time it's going into a forest, it's only you know yielding a certain amount of timber, a certain value of timber. So it really messes up the economics of a small forest. People will do it, and and there are there are various you know bodies around the country really, really encouraging it. And it it is possible, but I think for a lot of small

smaller forest owners, which is the vast, vast majority, you know, are farmers with their with their relatively small forests. I think most of them will still be be looking at a at a clearfeld model. Now they'll be replanting. They absolutely will be. The design at replanting as as you you mentioned could be different, with more areas of broadleaves going in when it's replanted, you know, mandated by by the Department of Agriculture, replanting of broadleaves leaves around around streams and other

you know, bodies of water and waterways and rivers and all the rest of it, also around further setbacks and roads and things like that. So there'll be a redesign very often. But I think, you know, just for those economic reasons where it's much more efficient to just go in, all the trees are were planted at the same time. Therefore all the trees are ready to come down at the same time. There's also, I mean, you'll be well well aware of Storm Aowan and Storm Dara that we had the guts of two years ago now or you know yeah more than a year and a half ago now.

Which took down a lot of trees around the country. Wi wind blow, as we call it, the knocking down of trees by storms can be a real issue when you're looking at trying to trying to thin out forests or do continuous cover forestry. The way that a lot of our forests were planted 30 years ago was very much designed for you know, they're planted close together, we're planting the trees close together because you don't want lots of branches. You get lots and lots of branches up the side of the tree, you've got lots and lots of knots in your wood. If you've lots and lots of knots in your wood.

speaker-1 (33:25.41)
The wood is not as strong and doesn't look as good either, but it's not as strong. You know, there was a very, very specific kind of scientific design to how we planted those forests for a reason, but that design very often doesn't necessarily lend itself to to continuous cover. And indeed, you know, I think probably some of the some of the people who would criticize Clearfell might actually, if they waited a little bit, get it get a quicker transition.

To forests that maybe they prefer because there's more biodiversity area in them and more broadleaves in them, because when they're replanted after clearfell, they're redesigned very often. You might, if you gave it a couple of decades, you're actually going to more quickly end up with a maybe a type of forest that you prefer, which doesn't suit the landowner. Let's just be frank here. It doesn't suit the economic owner of that forest to have to redesign it. It doesn't suit our future timber supply.

But if you're into having diverse forests, then maybe you're actually better off saying, Well, hang on, I'll more quickly get a more diversified forest down the line, if that forest is clearfelt and and a slightly different forest or or perhaps significantly different forest is is mandated to be put in its place.

speaker-0 (34:40.962)
Yeah, we'll get on to that again maybe in a few minutes. There's a huge change in an old forest and a new forest. and I say we're making big progress there, which is certainly costing the the landowner, it's not costing the public anything 'cause it's mandated and and it's it's it's it's obligatory in that sense. So the landowners delivering a a public good on private land. But

Here's another weak question I have for you. And it it all I owe I always see it on on social media. Pesticide use. Forests are full of pesticides. They're they're we're spraying night and day on them. Can you can you talk about that? Because I mean, that's a big criticism that comes up and I and whether it's true in the past, I'm I'm wondering is it true now?

speaker-1 (35:24.8)
Yeah, I I I don't know whether we need to need to talk about that too much, 'cause to be honest with you, that's just not the case. Forest, when it's newly planted, you you might have to s to spray it. You might. Very often you don't. Yeah. Or w or after clearfell, and you're replanting after clearfell to protect the new trees from weevils and and and various things. You might have to spray it once. You might have to do a bit of sort of manual vegetation control, which is not spray. But very often you don't need to.

After that, nothing goes on in the forest. There's no there's no fertilizer used, forests are are not sprayed. After that, maybe sprayed once. And sprayed by hand, you know, sprayed at sort of ground level by hand. We're not sort of crop dusting them or or taking taking tractors through them or anything like that. You know, so they're very carefully done by hand and very at a lot of cost, maybe once with very low volumes. And if you think about a typical Irish field of grass.

You know, eighty percent of our of our agricultural land is grass. The amount of work that's put into those in terms of supporting them with nutrition and and and spraying, etcetera, never mind our our arable crops, which which has to be done. It just you know the crops won't grow if you don't control these things. But a hectare of forestry or an area of forestry compared to an area of other agricultural land used in other ways, there is there is zero imprint from from chemicals.

speaker-0 (36:53.43)
No, I'd I'd agree with you. You're making a fair point there, yeah.

speaker-1 (36:56.398)
If you're against these chemicals, then you should you'd have forest everywhere.

speaker-0 (36:59.222)
You're making a fair point. I I I think possibly in the past there was a view that we needed to fertilize more often. But I I have heard it said that once a forest rotation is complete, the the soil is almost conditioned and the trees will grow better the second time. So yeah, I I I see very little of it. And in actual fact, I think any idea that fertilization is is a is an option is knocked in head as soon as you look at the cost of hand fertilizing trees.

speaker-1 (37:24.79)
Well it's it's not economic. No. You want to protect it against it. Well listen, it's it's it's not it's the the the benefit from it is is less than the cost of it. So so people just don't do it.

speaker-0 (37:35.374)
Well, let's move on now to the idea we've talked a good bit about the timber and the industry and why we need more of that to lock away the carbon. one of the first pillars of FIA was affarestation. So I think a landowner should all consider planting, at least, look at it, look at their land. But what do you say to someone who is interested but is put off by the amount of regulation, application and licensing system? Do we really need all that, Mark?

speaker-1 (38:03.82)
Yeah, like so this has been a major challenge for the sector over the last decade in particular. The regulation of forestry has gone through the roof. There's a requirement now for every application for planting a new forest to have an a an appropriate assessment, what's called an appropriate assessment carried out, which is a very, very comprehensive environmental assessment of the project. You know, it's a similar assessment to if you were going to build a new

chemical factory on a piece of land. You know, it's a or a new shopping center or something. Actually, it's deemed a project. And as a project, broadly defined project, it then needs it needs a full environmental screening. So this this means that the licensing process, which is effectively you make an application and then you wait to be given a license by the department. You must have a license to to plant a new forest.

So you're given you you have to wait for the license to be issued. It takes a bit of time. Now, I'm glad to say that, you know, a number of years ago, around the time of COVID, there was a terrible backlog, you know, and it was taking months and months, you know, two years, 18 months, two years for a lot of people to to wait for their license to come through. because this was d when the new system was introduced and this new tighter comprehensive regulation was introduced. I'm glad to say that that's tumbled now.

So you you might be waiting six months, you might be waiting nine months, you know, and the department has has pretty much put a cap on it now that that pretty much nobody would be waiting more than nine months. You know, and and bear in mind that the department, the government now funds that process to some extent. So effectively, if you're if you're a farmer, I was just doing some some fiddle playing around with AI this morning and and and generating these very simple infographics in terms of the steps you would take for.

As a as a farmer, if you were thinking about planting a parcel of land and and typically of AI, some of it was brilliant and some of it was absolutely terrible. But but but setting that aside, so I was thinking about the steps you take. So the steps you take, you know, effectively you kind of go, right, well listen, do I have a parcel of land which is maybe an away part of the farm or it is it is a wetter part of the farm, a p part of the part of the farm that I you know

speaker-1 (40:24.61)
I'm not getting a good a good result from or it gives me a lot of trouble. So do I have five or six or seven hectares there? I'll look at that. Then what do I do? But then you approach, you know, a forestry company. You know, there's forestry companies up and down the country, approach a consultant, approach forest, they'll come out and have a look at it, and then you'll you'll go, Yeah, well listen, you know, I think I've looked at the returns. The government is going to pay a hundred percent of the cost of of planting this, or n near to.

hundred percent of cost of planting this. So I'm gonna get a brand new forest all planted, all perfectly done, effectively for free. Okay, I'll have to wait maybe six, nine months to get a license, but sure s six, nine months is only a change in the seasons. So I don't think that's that's bad, to be honest. And you'll get your license, you'll get your approval and and then the forester will come in, all paid for by the government, will come in, plant it, will do every piece of work that you need. If you need some fencing, the fencing will be paid for, et cetera, et cetera. And there you'll have a brand new growing forest, whether it be

You know, broadleaf full of mixed mixed Irish native trees, or it'd be a mixture between that and conifers. If you want some conifers to have a timber crop down the line. So that you'll have that. And then you'll have you know, you'll get 20 years. If you're a farmer, you'll get 20 years of premiums. Premiums are very, very generous. I've just done some and and you'll get 20 years of premiums. And then if you've grown some coniferous trees, you'll probably have it, you're you'll probably looking at clear felling those.

Or having your timber crop maybe thirty, thirty-five years, which is which is a significant, a very significant financial event for a lot of people who did plant forests. You know, i i tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of euro. You know, it's a very significant financial event in a in in the life of a small farm. And a lot of farmers would have planted it with a view to, okay, well, that's my retirement pot. That'll be a lump sum in retirement, or that'll be a lump sum when

the the the kids are getting to a certain age where they need, you know, college paying for or they need a little bit of help to to buy a house or something like it's that big financial lump sum that you get tax free, all tax free, premiums tax free, lump sum at the end tack hundred percent tax free. So that's the that's the that's the model. We've just finishing off some research which we've done with IFAC. IFAC are are the the farm

speaker-1 (42:44.002)
You probably know them, the farm advisory, they do a lot of sort of farm accounts and farm financial planning. Very good, good outfit. And we're doing a bit of work with them, not finalized just yet. I'll be finalizing it in the next couple of weeks. But looking at the the returns. So if you're looking at the returns, comparing the returns that you'll get from forestry to what you'll get from other activities, you know, forestry is gonna, you know, net return you about in in in gross terms, it's it or it if you don't discount it over time, it's about

you know, 12, 1300 euro a year. It is it is three times the typical returns that a farmer is getting from beef system or from sheep or from or from arable. dairying is still top of the list. You know, if you have a dairy operation, you're probably getting a couple of hundred euro more per hectare per annum over over the period. Between the forestry premiums, which are very, very generous, your forestry premium could be 1100 euros per hectare per annum for twenty years.

That means you're getting twenty two thousand hectares per annum for planting that forest. So if you've got if you've got if you've got ten hectares of that, ten hectares of native woodland, you you'll be getting 220,000 euro just in premiums from the government. And the government's already paid to plant the thing. So it hasn't cost you anything, and you're not doing any work in there. So the returns, as I say, you the IFAC analysis, by the time they look they they looked at the cap side and they looked at the the the the forestry premiums and they looked at the the Chagas.

National Farm Survey data in terms of average earnings from different farm systems across the country. So very, very robust data set that's created by by Chagas and made the comparisons. You know, it it from a purely financial point of view, in terms of the returns per hectare, it's very, very positive. Because you and one of the things that makes it very positive is there's essentially zero inputs. There's zero cost inputs. You're not putting buying fertilizer, you're not expending diesel.

You know, effectively for you know, the only challenge you're going to do work whilst managing your forest, you might thin your forest after fifteen years and after twenty years, take out some of the smaller trees and and to allow the bigger trees, the the the better trees to grow better and give them a bit of space. But those those are those are a net net earner for the for the farmer. You know, so they're not costing you money, they're earning your money because you're you're you're selling the timber for more than the cost of getting the guy in to do the work. So, you know, there's no costs.

speaker-1 (45:10.934)
Anyway, sorry, we started talking off by talking about the licensing, but just yeah, the licensing thing and the regulation thing. The difficult parts of the regulation now for Irish forestry are things like there are there are some there are more restrictions now on the type of land you might be allowed to plant. And they're they're very problematic. So certainly when Minister Healy Ray was was in office, he was very keen on on looking at that and looking at, well, look, we're not planting we're not gonna plant on bog lands. We're not gonna plant on

very environmentally sensitive lands. We're not effectively going to plant anymore on our uplands and on our on our hillsides. That's all gone. But where we have rushy fields up and down the country that have a you know a mixed soil, a bit of a sort of peachy soil. Now it's not turf. It's not, you know, it's not a bog, it's not turf. It's not that type of habitat at all. It's a rushy, grassy field on a on a sort of peachy soil.

At the moment we're really struggling to get that type of land planted. And typically that was forestry land, because it's not good for cattle or sheep. It's not really good land for for other systems. We're struggling to plant on that land because of because of the view taken in Brussels that, you know, when I go over and speak to them, they basically lump everything in together. You know, they lump a pristine, original bog land untouched for millennia. They lump that in with with you know.

grassy, rushy field that has been drained hundreds of years ago, been drained and improved and had fertilizer put on it and everything. They lump that all in together and they don't draw the distinction, which means that we're we're we we struggle to to plant that sort of so that's a that's an issue, you know, in terms of environmental regulation. The timber sector certainly, you know, has has has a difficulty with with the amount of land

We're losing in new forests, you know, we're losing the product a lot of product development. As I said earlier, you're only getting about two thirds productive area. So if you're planting 10 hectares, let's say, of of a supposedly commercial forest, you're losing a third of it to set aside for for biodiversity, and 20% of it is going to be broadleaves, which is great for for environmental reasons, but it's it's a challenge to the farmer who's thinking of putting that land into forestry because he's going, Well, gee, I'm losing it.

speaker-1 (47:36.876)
Losing a fair bit of you'll get your premiums on all of it. so you'll get your financial return on on all of it. But it's just that sense of the loss of productive area. You know, and our our our so that I think that's a challenge to the farming sector. And it's also a challenge to the sawmills, because we're we're you know, we're we're actually our our area of forest nationally under conifers is shrinking today because we're not planting much new and and at replanting we're losing area all the time because of

bigger setbacks for roads, for rivers, for this, that, and the other. And I think all of this is is a question of finding a balance, finding the right balance between having enough productivity where people are interested in doing it, and at the same time having enough diversity and and protections for nature where there are real positives for for biodiversity and and for for everything else and for for water quality and for all these other

really, really important things that we absolutely want to to look after as well. So it's a question of just getting that that balance correct.

speaker-0 (48:42.092)
Mark, maybe we'll finish off with this aspect then. You you've mentioned a couple of areas that you're speaking to DG Climate in in Brussels and d some of the issues there around some of the blockers, the the things that are causing landowners perhaps not to plant. But over and above those, what are FFI FII asking the government to do maybe when the next forestry program comes out? I mean, are there very specific changes?

that user lobbying for that might make the difference in in getting landowners to plant.

speaker-1 (49:17.144)
Yeah, there are. You know, we have a new forestry program coming up in in twenty twenty eight. And basically we're we're the Department of Agriculture is already begun the process of consulting with the industry about what that's going to look like. We're concerned about what I just spoke about, the lot the loss of productive area. We think, you know, there are certainly, you know, customers out there for planting forests who would be more interested if they were able to plant even if it was eighty percent. You know, even if you were planting twenty percent broadleaves.

And and 80% spruce, let's say, you know, they might be more interested. The financial return will be better. The sense of growing a productive crop will be for people who are interested in that productive side, will be they'll be more interested for that. I think what's going to be challenging, but something we should look at, is you're getting your forestry premiums. Let's say you're getting 200,000 euro in forestry premiums. It's a lot of money, but you're getting them over 20 years. Could we look at

front loading some of that. Could we look at say, okay, the other you can take your two hundred thousand over twenty years or you can get fifty thousand in year one. You know, if you need a lump sum, you know, if the roof on the house needs changing or whatever reason, you know, myriad of reasons. You can get fifty thousand year one and then we'll we'll sort of we we give you the the the balance or a reduced slightly reduced balance over the next fifteen years or whatever it might be. You know, so maybe you get less overall.

bit less overall, but you get more up front. I think a lot of people be interested in that because as we know, a lot of our farmers are they're not sort of cash rich, shall we say, in terms of having kind of cash in the bank. So maybe we can help them by doing that. And that might draw more people in. And I think you need to we need some innovative, kind of slightly more radical thinking. I think we need to look at that whilst we stay away absolutely from planting environmentally sensitive land and environmentally sensitive habitats and and

All that side of things. Yeah, where land is improved, drained, fertilized under livestock, shall we say, I think we need to look at allowing that land to be to be planted again.

speaker-0 (51:28.108)
No, look at Mark, that's brilliant. Is there anything else you want to add before we finish?

speaker-1 (51:32.246)
No, that's been really interesting conversation. And thanks for having me on the podcast. Perfect.

speaker-0 (51:36.93)
Mark, thanks a million. Thanks again to Mark Macaulay from Forest Industries Ireland for his time and input in making this podcast possible. Mark has made a strong case for why we need to be expanding forest cover in Ireland by planting the right trees in the right place. And hopefully we can bring all stakeholders with us on that journey. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Any feedback or comments, do feel free to email me at forestnowpodcast at gmail.com. Until the next time, take care.