Forestry Now

Dermot McNally 0:01
welcome to forestry now where we explore the forces impacting profitable and sustainable management of commercial forests and natural woodlands. I'm Dermot McNally, the fallout from storm Dara and Avon has been monumental for the Irish forestry industry. To get an overview of this, I speak with Victor Barber. Victor is a qualified forester who began his career with Western forestry crop and is now their harvesting manager based out of Sligo. He also farms and is a regular contributor to the farmers journal on all things forestry. We speak about storm Evan. We try to make sense of why some sites blew down and some sites didn't we discuss the challenge harvesting wind blown sites and the arrival of international harvesting crews. Finally, we talked through the export of timber in containers and how prices are holding up for the owners of recently harvested forests. As always, find links and contact details in the show notes below and enjoy the conversation. Victor. Thanks very much for joining me. Glad to be here. Can you explain the typical harvesting method or service that you offer to customers of Western forestry?

Victor Barber 1:13
So I suppose just give you a bit of background. I suppose look the first harvesting jobs that we would have been involved at as Western forestry Co Op, we would have sold the timber standing. And we've moved on over the years, where we've evolved, and now we sell all our customers timber delivered in are at the very least Road site. That basically means to that we are in control of the actual harvest that takes place on the site. So those contractors that are cutting the owner's timber are applied directly by Western forestry Co Op. They work for us all year round. Is so they have reliability in that they have work coming up and then, so we have the reliability that they're going to be there to do our jobs as well the service we offer, we basically come in to organizing the Harrison contractor to come onto the site at an agreed rate, and then to actually harvest the timber and sell all the timber on behalf of the owner. On a normal given site, the timber would probably end up in four or five different mills. Is the kind of the normal thing. We sell timber to anyone that basically wants to buy timber in the island, Ireland, I suppose the way I describe it is, the more products you have, the more use you're making. The timber is to try and maximize the amount of money you can actually get out of it there. There are similarities to it in butchern, you know, you're trying to cup the tree up into the best, most productive method to make the most money out of it for the owner. And it's nice to see all the timber going to an actual productive use and going to mills that want that particular product. That's the timber side of it, I suppose. Look at it's far more to it than just selling the timber. It's about all the legalities around that got to do with the environment, water, setbacks. It's giving the owner peace of mind that everything that they're doing is within the rules, and it's been done the proper way. Again, to try and describe it to someone like harvesting a sale of timber is a very complex thing, and I would sometimes compare it to it's like a one off person building a house for the first time you ever do it. It's extremely tricky and complex. And I suppose selling timber for the first time is the same as that. So it's Why would you bring in the project manager? Why would you bring in a lead on building your own house is to take all the problems and complexities out of it, and that you end up with a job running smoothly. And according to Bren, that there's no nasty surprises along the way.

Dermot McNally 3:39
And just to tease out one aspect, you mentioned that some customers might go for a roadside price, whereas, in the normal sense, I think you're selling to the mills. Why would some customers prefer to take a roadside service?

Victor Barber 3:53
Well, they'll be guided by ourselves or a bit more. I suppose 90% of what we sell is delivered in so it's just we have individual customers that we would trust a lot, and maybe they're set up. And again, it's just to get the best out of it for the the owner that we're selling for, and they might be the best mill, just that they have their own system of picking up timber. So it might be just to suit that and to work with them on the job. So it is, but predominantly it's delivered into the mills. So it's to bring and for us, it's about having the control over the whole cycle, the whole, you know, the whole getting the timber from the side to the mill that organized the hall here, so we know who's coming and going and when they want coming and Gore is the D behind that.

Dermot McNally 4:37
Very good. Okay, so prior to storm Dara, Dara and Eamon, how many harvesting crews were regularly working for Western

Victor Barber 4:46
we would have been 2023 24 donor. We would have been in around five or six machines give or take for the whole year through which we're busy. It's, you know, when you're dealing with private one outsides, you know our main. Customer is an average of the national average, about five or six hectares. When you take off the broad leaves and take off the setbacks, you know, you're dealing with maybe three or four hectares of Spruce timber, and which relates back to, you know, maybe 1500 1800 ton of timber. So it's a lot of organizing. You're always on the moves the next job and the next job and the next job is not like maybe they compare it to quill decides where you'd be taken down, maybe 20 hectares or less at each time. So there's just more logistics in in managing our typical customer. So there

Dermot McNally 5:32
is okay. And then just how many harvest and crews have you working for Western at the minute since or at this point, Victor just so

Victor Barber 5:41
25 this was we would have had up to 11 there during summer. Dinner was our peak, and we're probably back down now at seven or eight there at the moment, which is enough. It's been an absolutely crazy year. There is no other way to describe it. Yeah, it's totally turned everything on its head, what we were used to and the normal way of doing business. It is been a crazy year. It's the only way to describe it.

Dermot McNally 6:07
Victor, are you still working with international crews? Or are the extras local crews?

Victor Barber 6:13
Yes, we have international crews with us. We've we have the main international crews we've witnessed there at the moment. Dermot are the Romanian drivers. They're managed by Dutch, but they're Romanian drivers, and they have a serious interest in the job there. They were brought up with this. This it's, they take their prize, and it's phenomenal. So yeah, we're, we're really delighted to have them on board. They brought a really good standard of work with them. Their course, there's been an adaption to the Irish climate to get used to that. But I have to say, look, from our point of view, they took it on and they listened, yes, that there was a bed in period there, when the weather changed in September, all contractors had a good time of it during the summer where there was, you know, it is very easy to manage from environmental point of view. But as soon, as soon as September kicked in in the northwest, the normal Irish weather returns. So it is. It has been a learning curve for them, you know, but I have to say, they've talked to it very

Dermot McNally 7:15
well, brilliant. Okay, and any language issues, Victor or they all speak English.

Victor Barber 7:20
There is a course dorms, absolutely. And look at, I suppose the language problems is probably more on our side than than their side, in that we have one language and that's it. And whereas most of them have at least half English along with their native there is times that it goes back to Google Translate and you know, but there's always one member of the team that that here that is perfect English, because it's essential when you're dealing with your environmental considerations. It's the fine detail that makes the difference you're close enough just won't do when you're dealing with environmental situations. So yeah, it's always very important to have one person the group that's fully on board and understands English, and they translate back to the rest of the group. There's any, it's the only way around it. So it is.

Dermot McNally 8:05
We'll get back to the conversation with Victor in a second. But if you're in the market for forestry lands, go to forest sales.ie. Where you'll find forests for sale across the country, and all the information you need to make a decision that's forest sales.ie. Now back to the interview with Victor Barber of Western forestry. Now, let's move on then to talk about the forest that had wind blow Could you point out, or could you describe an obvious pattern in terms of which sites blew down and why?

Victor Barber 8:37
Yeah, look at from my own point of view, we were always very conservative at tinan here in the Northwest, because of the depth of the soil, you know, and we'd seen small amount of wind blow over the years, so we were conservative, and that had stood us very well with our customers, in that we'd very little issues in wind blown timber over the last number of years, which it was great we didn't have the big part. Problem with wind blow. Look at this. Storm really threw things on its head. None of the rules applied. I wish I could sit here and say that the ones that we never thinned stood the storm. They didn't, if it was in the path and if it was in the area, that central, northwest area, they came down the same way as the 10 months so that so there was, I don't think anyone could say there was anything, any situation, that really dealt with it better than others. If the odd real shelters location survived, or the odd really, really wind firm, deep root in sight survive, but in the name anything that was in that central, Northwestern area got hammered, basically.

Dermot McNally 9:46
And is there an age profile then Victor? Would you say that sites that were thinned or unthinned under 25 stood or could you say that the problem is predominantly in sites over X years of age?

Victor Barber 9:58
Yeah, so it's. Very safe to say anything between 20 years plus Tinder on thinned really came out of this really badly, since it anything, yeah, anything that was kind of above 1415, meters freely, I suppose age is irrelevant. It's the height of the trees is different. So anything above that in the 1314, meters really, really come in for a hard time, which matches up with kind of 20 years plus, yes, if it was pinned, it definitely came down easier and but again, going back with plenty stands that were never thinned, and they ended up on the ground as well, such as like this is look, there is a lot of talk about climate and weather, but the reality is that that was a storm like we never had before, in that it was so widespread in the northwest. It wasn't just a very, very localized storm where it might hit a few town lands. It was widespread. So it was that was the big difference. Okay?

Dermot McNally 10:59
And is it obvious enough to say that broadleaf plantations were broadly unaffected? Yeah, it's

Victor Barber 11:08
a fair comment, but I suppose people are missing the point, maybe really why they were unaffected? German in general, broadleaf, they obviously have no leaves in the winter. So this was a mid winter. It was the end of January storm. So there's no there's no leaves like the conifers hold the needles the whole year. So there's something there for the wind to catch. And generally speaking, the broad leaves are never as tall as spruce plantations. Generally broadly plantations, you know, they're if they're running around 12, 1314, meters, that's their max height. So again, it's the laws of gravity kick in here. They don't have as much to catch in the winter. And, yeah, hey, they're just not as tall. And it's they were safer. And look at this. Look around the countryside, after any of the mature stuff that was out there, broadly, it got really badly affected as well. Should we all know big trees that have been there for the last couple of 100 years, still in full health, but they had the height and they had the mass for the wind to catch, and they suffered as well. I don't think it's something that you can say conifers were affected more the broadlees. It's it goes back to just their shape and size and

Dermot McNally 12:18
the top height. Yeah, very good. Okay. Now on a typical conifer site, then that has been wind blown. Can you describe, to someone who's not familiar with the harvesting process, why it is so much slower to harvest a wind blown than a site that hasn't been affected?

Victor Barber 12:34
Yeah, so I suppose to start off again, go back to thinned and unthinned. Go obviously the more stems the sun is. This storm seems to have, normally, wind blow would knock the trees all in one direction. For some reason this storm, when you go into a wind blown site, the trees can be three different directions. So it's nearly like a bowl of spaghetti that the trees are all overlapping each other. So when the harvester comes along to grab those trees, it's they have to sort out that, and you just cannot grab so a lot of the time you can't even see the root blade, or you can't the stem of the three that the harvester has to grab. You have to cut all the trees from around it. So it's a real jigsaw puzzle that the harvester driver has to sort out. It takes even longer, if the site was never thinned, well, then you're gonna be up around 2000 stems to the hectare. So that adds more time to it and slows it down even further. Now, if the site was thinned two or three times, it is a big help. It leaves it easier, still challenging, but it leaves it that bit easier. But on average, across the board, I would say, if you 50% of normal production. Done it in a wind Bren stand. That's, that's a good driver, that's very capable driver, that's just literally where it's at, you'll be, you'll be down 50% production each day.

Dermot McNally 13:51
Okay, so it's taken them a good bit longer to get through it.

Victor Barber 13:55
Basically, yeah, and it's just, it's immense amount of patience that's required, and it is really tested. And look from our Harrison contractors point of view, you know, I am really delighted with them for the year. It takes really patience and time and effort to keep the momentum up, because you have to get every single stick of timber that you pull out. You have to be on top of your game to do the best you can with it if your complacency sets in, the owner is the loser. So it is,

Dermot McNally 14:26
yeah, okay. And if your contractor has harvesting machines and forwarders, but the harvesting is much lower, does that leave forwarding machine sitting idle somewhere Victor that don't have work to do then,

Victor Barber 14:41
no, it doesn't generally, well, it hasn't this year. Notice, worked out all right, that time, that way, I suppose. Look at the harvest. That's there. They're still high capacity machines, so there, and the forwarder has always worked to be doing and especially when it's. The timber kicked in where the weather turned. You know, as far a forwarder could spend up in bad weather, spending three, four hours of its day putting down brash to maintain the site and maintain the soil isn't getting damaged. So there's a huge amount of the day gone at that alone. So there is, yes, of course, there's always going to be odd sites, which very tricky, and that the forwarder might have been having less to do, but, yeah, in general, it's it just that works out grant

Dermot McNally 15:27
Okay, and then clear file before wind blow and after wind blow is the recovery rate of saleable timber noticeably different on wind blown sites.

Victor Barber 15:40
It's and again. You know, I say it at every field day. We do Derman, and I emphasize it again and again. And that really is dependent on the harvester driver, that's on the machine. They have such an influence in that we're definitely in and on the insight. They are extremely gentle. And some of the worst ones that I seen this year, you know, worthy of wind blow three different ways. You know, maybe with an increase of maybe pulp going up 10% but in general, as as the months went by and the lads got a better handle on it, let's go on. I'd like to think that we're still getting absolute maximum recovery out of the site and the, you know, the material that's going into, going into pulp because of the storm is less than 5% and usually that's down to a snap in the site. Or where the timber was damaged are simply the trees just couldn't be got out without taking a length of pulp off one of them, you know. Or where the harvester had to cut a track in nothing, in general, at the moment, for 2025 Dartmouth, the recovery, it has been very good like it hasn't had a big effect on the recovery of usable timber.

Dermot McNally 16:53
Brilliant, okay. And then the next question, Victor, is it harder to recover brash from a site that has been blown? Or is it more, or less the same it is.

Victor Barber 17:02
And again, that's totally weather related during so the summer was fine, so there was no problem recovering brash and during the summer, for some reason on wind blow sites, and I can't really explain it, but the brash does seem to be scarcer. It just there doesn't seem to be as much of it. But yeah, look at at the moment, we'd be using a lot of brash just to maintain the sites and keep them, keep them in proper environmental or that there's no damage been done to the sides. At the moment, you know, there's very little risk brash being recovered of sites at the moment, and probably will remain the same for the winter. And there's, there's a good few sites that we've just taken the decision it's not, it's not worthwhile for anyone recovering the little bit of brash that's left on them. And the brash, I suppose, it's widely known. It is a low value, low quality product, and so it is running into bother in Ireland at the moment, as far as a home is concerned. Eden durry been the main user of that. And they are, yes, I suppose it's, again, it's widely known. They have a lot of stuff in their Bren at the moment, so there is pressure coming on it.

Dermot McNally 18:10
Okay, very good. And just one more question on the timber coming out of its out of it. Is there any demand, or special demand, for certified forests, or is that even an issue for the buyers?

Victor Barber 18:22
So look, I'll only speak for ourselves, Western far as we go, up here, just the way we have found it. And we're selling timber at the moment through agents to China, to Europe, and obviously the whole market, as we've always and will continue to prioritize. But certification hasn't been an issue for us this year, and there has came no timber buyer to us offer more money from anywhere in the world. Offer us more money for certified timber than rather uncertified. And that's just our experience on turf. So it is

Dermot McNally 18:55
very good. Okay, well, you mentioned China and Europe, and I think that's a new thing. So can you just talk through the process that led to Irish timber being exported in containers off the island of Ireland? Then, yeah,

Victor Barber 19:08
so luckily, it is totally and utterly a direct result of the storm. I suppose there had been bits and pieces happening over the years as far as exported timber is concerned. But I suppose what's quite obvious of the date now we Ireland had a healthy Irish timber market, and the prices were quite good. I know we experienced some record highs during covid years. But aside from that, we had a healthy market. So the result been in that we have, after the storm, we've had maybe three, four years work all ready to go at once. So an oversupply of timber. The Irish mill saw milling industry has reacted and dealt with the problem extremely well all year, and that they've taken a huge volume of stuff all year and allowed the timber to keep moving. But there is just basically too much timber there at the moment to be all consumed, and especially that. Mid range product where you're what we would traditionally call pallet wood. It's a word of you I don't like using because a lot of the time it never ends up in pallets. But that's just the industry term, versus a 2.5 at 3.1 and a 3.7 pallet. And because there's so many younger plantations been harvested that has been oversupplied this year and will be oversupplied next year as well. So all that has led to an oversupply. So to use it, the overseas market has been looked at, and that has resulted in some companies exporting by boat, I would at different ports around Ireland and by container, to which really can end up anywhere in the world. Sir Ken, so there's an appetite across the world for timber. The logistics is the problem.

Dermot McNally 20:46
Let me pause the conversation for a second to ask you this, could your business benefit from increased profile in the forestry sector? Well, if so, maybe you should be considering advertising on Ireland's only dedicated forestry podcast, with new episodes coming out every two weeks. So get in touch with forestry now to see how we can make it work for you. Back to the chat with Victor. Yeah, let's move on to that logistics. Then first question though, you mentioned bringing in international crews, Romanian drivers, Dutch maybe management? Are they the people that are buying the timber and exporting it? Or who are you selling the timber to that's going abroad?

Victor Barber 21:28
The setup is basically that these are European companies, and they specialize in tidied up after storms. So big, big natural weather events that happen all around the year, all around the world every year. So there's a storm in Ireland, January gone past. It could have been in Sweden the year before. It could have been in Hungary the year before that. And they react, and they go and they buy timber and they sell it to the rest of the world. So they're, they're spent their whole lives at this. So they're professionals out of this. They know how it works. They have the logistics set up. They have the relationship set up with the timber buyers, so they're the middle person that were there is different ways of doing it, but I suppose for us, I don't see this as a long term thing, so I don't see it worth our while heading for China to set up new relationships with new business, because when the timber right, price of timber does return to normal, this market will probably close off again.

Dermot McNally 22:29
So basically, this is totally price dependent. Once the price dropped to a certain point, then it became viable for these guys to buy it and and take it abroad.

Victor Barber 22:39
Yes, that's the essential part there that don't release the price had to get to a situation that it was viable for them to get in. Because look at just a couple of quick, rough costs. Like to send timber to Europe, no matter how you send is probably looking at about 60 years a ton, 5060, euros a ton. So it's Admiral it's in bulk cargo. Timber is not a hugely valuable product, so it's expensive to move. So it is. So when you do take the price of timber and bought 5060, euros a ton on to it, that's making us very expensive to send her to the other side, toward or wherever it be. Okay.

Dermot McNally 23:16
Well, let's talk about getting the timber that you've now harvested on a wind blown site somewhere elite from let's say, how do you get that from roadside and into containers that's going to be brought to the docks and then shipped?

Victor Barber 23:28
So it was a lot of the companies that came in started off for a part that traditionally would have done in a lot of companies or a lot of countries in Europe. They would come to the site and load the timber off the forest road into the container and then send it from there to Dublin. Good. I said. We tried this ourselves with these companies, and it for us, it just became very apparent very quickly that this is not going to work, and you're dealing in the rural northwest, the road infrastructure wasn't there, and I suppose it also has made us appreciate the Irish hauliers a little bit more in their level of skill and competency, that when you were bringing drivers that weren't used to forests, they struggled during it big time. So just from a health and safety point of view, was the main driving thing behind this. We knew this was going to have to cease. So we returned then to where the timber is now delivered into yards, private yards. That's good access, good location, close to the end for we deliver the timber into that yard and let it be by the cubic meter, or by the ton, or whatever the system is. It's been sold. Our normal hauliers call to the woods, collect that timber and drop it into these yards, and then it's been able to load it into the container in a safe working conditions, and off it goes. Then with the normal freight hauliers that bring it to Dublin port, and it goes onto the ship, and off it goes to wherever, okay?

Dermot McNally 24:55
And I mean, where is the timber measured? Then you. You have an idea from the harvesting machines how much timber has been left roadside, but how does it get measured so that the owner gets paid for what's come off their forest?

Victor Barber 25:11
So there's been a lot of different systems working in Ireland, because everything that we have ever done in private timber sales in Ireland has always been the by the ton, so we're still doing some of some of that with these timber that's been exported. It's by the ton. Some wood is by the cubic meter as well. So I suppose, personally, Western fighter Co Op has been used in a Dermot as a chance to get experience in measuring timber so to see how it's done on a European and international scale, and the way they measure the timber. So it's been a great experience from that way. Some would come to the site and measure it, and then we would measure it along with them. More of it is done in timber yards, where it's measured going into the containers and by the cubic meter. There's different ways. It can be done by stack measurement, or it can be done by individual logs. You know, when we first started that there were one measuring every single individual log, we thought there was mad idea. And it's actually, when you see it been done and get used to it's quite simple and fast and efficient. So it's not, it's not impossible. So it's, it's been a brilliant learning curve for us. And because buckle, obviously, the elephant of the room in Ireland in timber sales is the weight versus cubic meter. And there's no problem in saying that we've had the best summer in 2025 weather wise that we've seen in a long number of years. And timber been harvested. The timber was light because it wasn't getting full moisture content up into the tree. So the timber was on the light side ever before it was harvested. And then really, really good conditions. And timber, if it sat on the side of the road for even a few days, it was beginning to lose weight. So it's something that we are going to have to work in 2026 to move away from that measured by the ton, because if you have a good summer and wind blown timber, it's not suitable to be selling it by the ton. And I know there might be some in the industry would like to be here, be saying that, and if you're a timber buyer, but I think it's widely accepted that that's the reality. It's not good for the timber seller, which is ultimately the owner. It's not good for them to be selling timber by the time. So it's not in in somewhere with really dry weather conditions. So we've got to move towards selling timber by the cubic meter. Now, that is quite a complex issue, and to get one cap that fits all is going to be a big challenge, but it is going to have to be a bridge that's crossed in Ireland to move away. We are not the only country. It's often put out there. We're the only country still selling timber by the ton. We're not the UK sells the majority of its timber by the ton as well. So it is something that we have to work on, though, definitely. So it is. So I think this is a good opportunity to get our heads around it. And for a private owner, it's even another step up from the great thing we love by the time dermod was that we had a weight docket every time we come back and so show an order. It's a very visible tangent, tangible thing that you can see with your own eyes, and it's a printed piece of paper from a Wey bridge. So there was a lot of trust in it when you went to measuring timber by the cubic meter, the owner is removed from that essentially, a lot of the time. And it's completely based on trust, unless they're going to come out along with us and start measuring timber on site, they don't have a lot of interaction with it, so there is more for us, for the owner, to get used, to, to accept. So it's something is going to take a fair bit of work to move it on. So it is,

Dermot McNally 28:56
yeah, I'm guessing that you probably start to see a pattern with the haulage that you start to see an average cubic meters on a typical haulage. Laurie, would you?

Victor Barber 29:09
Victor, absolutely. Dharma, but there is look at there's always variance in the weight of timber in Ireland. There's never two sides to say. And it's something that interests me. It's where you could have a site that has a far better conversion rate from cubic meters to tons, and the size mile down the road from it could be on the lesser side of that. You know, is it the soil? Is it the provenance of the tree? Why is one way and better than the other? But there could be 10 to 15% in the difference, sometimes in the weight of the timber coming off, and the site could be covered same time of the year. So there's a lot of unknown there as well. On those the reasons behind that,

Dermot McNally 29:49
yeah, so bringing it to a volume as opposed to a weight measurement, would remove a lot of that uncertainty.

Victor Barber 29:57
It would and it would relieve this. Stress of getting timber moved within a few days when it's on the side of the road, because look at the times that we are in now. We've been blown timber, and we're going to be facing for 2026 as well. And there's all kinds of logistical problems and capacity going to be still there, as there was in 2025 so the great thing that would be with Juve meters is that when there's a dry week or weather next June, that there isn't panic setting in that an owner is lose a load of money because the timber isn't moved.

Dermot McNally 30:30
Am I right in saying that kilchers sell by volume, not weight, and therefore their sites are often harvested and left for a while before they're moved to the mills.

Victor Barber 30:41
That's great. And I suppose it takes it takes the stress out of it for the owner, if, for whatever reason that the mill can take it at that particular week or day that if it sits there longer, it's at no financial loss to the owner, which is the big upside. So, yeah, Quinn should do sell all by the cubic meter to the big metals, yes, but they have their own system, and it's not just as easy as flicking the switch for the private sector to adapt that system just overnight. It is going to take a lot of joined up thinking to make it work. So it is okay, okay.

Dermot McNally 31:20
So then victor will just get on to try and give an owner of a wind blown site a very, very rough average of what they might net out a wind blown site at per productive acre. So again, we there's no such thing as a typical site, but let's imagine you, you're just finished harvesting a 30 year old, fairly productive, unthinned, lit room site that has blown its 10 acres of productive timber. And based on the prices you're seeing at this point, can you give someone a range of figures of where they'll what they'll end up per acre in their in their pocket for clearing that wind blown timber?

Victor Barber 32:05
We'll do our best German to answer that question. But it is. There's a certain element of how long has a piece of string dancers, and so look at the age is everything. De what you said, there's that person with the 30 year old stands. That person is still it's not the end of the world for them, really, financially, you still have a cop crop that was essentially, it was nearly mature anyways, or some people might say it was mature in the Irish market. So if it's 30 year old, that isn't the end of the world. I suppose the real problem is that we have plantations all the way up. We have one customer plantation 16 years old, that's blowing so it's those younger plantations that's really going to be hit financially the worst here. If you've 30 year old plantation, you're not in, you're not in the world's worst of a place. I suppose what you have to account for here is timber prices came back in Ireland. Yes, they did come back a bit, but I suppose we have to mention the Irish timber mills could have dropped the prices a lot lower. They could have the one thing about all the foreign European companies that came into the country, they couldn't understand why the price of timber wasn't bottoming out. So the Irish mills have done even though, I suppose maybe hindsight would require, but they did not bottom out the market, which they could have if they wanted. The timber is oversupplied, so timber held at a fair price. The only problem is that the harvest and rates went up because, remember, we started off the conversation, the Harrison has taken twice as long on a wind blow site, so that Harris or driver had no choice but to increase their price. Is what they were charging to justify their day's wages. To make money, they're not here for for the fun of it. They have to make money to make the business viable, the same as any business. So you have harvest some prices have gone up. And also, yes, of course, there was a price reduction no matter where you were selling it. So the owner is getting squeezed in the middle. Now, again, come back to, if you have a site that's 30 years of age and it's yield and 350, 450 ton, they still have performed financially okay this year. And but it's those plantations determined that come down to 2223 year old. You know, we have harassed some there this year that the returns have been as low as 5000 a hectare. That's hominin money. So it is, don't about an interest perspective. I suppose everyone we would always been managing plantations to try and get them. Do you know that they were always going to net the owner seven or 8000 an acre at minimum, that that's what they were going if the ground was reasonably good, that that's what you were aiming. And it was, it was been done commonly, and if the round was quite good, and yet, 30 plus years, if you got it at 3233 34 years, it did that golden figure of 10,000 an acre was thrown out there, which was achievable. But it's those figures are gone for the moment. So they're. It's, yeah, and it's, it's not going to improve in 2026 I don't think it's, it's as good as it is. It's in a bad year for forestry. So it is, as far as timber prices are concerned. And that's just the reality of it. So them is the laws, I suppose, honestly, even the good stems during their back from, you know, 2025 Hector, they're probably back to in around 15 hectare this year as well, given the extra Harrison costs and the price drop in, in, in the products as well.

Dermot McNally 35:32
And then, really, the last question, then, Victor, is, what, what are you expecting in 2026 you've, you've kind of talked a little bit about it. There is there any silver lining? Or what should we expect?

Victor Barber 35:43
Oh, I don't think there's any silver lining. Look at the big thing is that we're all holding out for is to take some of the pain away for owners. Is the reconstitution grant that we're awaiting from the department. You know, we have had verbal commitments at meetings, and I am confident the Minister is going to deliver on it. It just, I suppose the time is now, and it's coming into planting season again, anything that was clear fell down, and sites were clear during the year. It's time to be getting those prepped for replanting. So we need that information from the department as soon as possible to let owners know what they're going to be entitled to or not, and it will be a great assistance. It's 100% necessary. The industry needs it. It was a huge disaster. And just to give a bit of faith and confidence back into the industry to get it going again and get the next rotation going. So that's that's the big thing we're hoping for. Price wise, as far as timber is concerned, look at 2026 this is just my opinion. I'll stress, I think so log will be okay, that mid range palette material will still be in both our next year and unfortunately, pulp is is going to be a difficult year for pulp next year. That seems to be a worldwide thing. At the moment, the prices are not fantastic, and that doesn't seem to be changing for the first quarter of 2026 anyways, by the indications there. So it's going to be a tough year for that. I said pulp prices are back back to 1990s levels, as far as I'd be concerned, which is a tough place to be. Okay.

Dermot McNally 37:23
Well, listen Victor, thanks very much for joining me. It's much appreciated.

Victor Barber 37:26
No problem. Thanks, abderma,

Dermot McNally 37:28
that's it for this podcast. Feel free to comment or subscribe for more episodes. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai