Forestry Now

speaker-0 (00:01.752)
Welcome to Forestry Now, where we explore the forces impacting profitable and sustainable management of commercial forests and natural woodlands. I'm Dermot McNally. Today I speak with Kathleen Lucey, who works with the Irish Forest Owners. The IFO support and represent forest owners across Ireland through a vibrant producer group network. In this interview, we focus on Kathleen's role as group certification manager at the IFO. We discussed

background to getting a forest certified, the benefits, the costs, the ongoing management requirements, the Irish government's new iPlan system and everything in between. As always, links in the show notes below, contact me at forestrynowpodcasts.gmail.com and enjoy the conversation.

speaker-0 (00:53.752)
Kathleen, thanks very much for joining me.

speaker-1 (00:55.768)
Delicidermist, thanks very much for having me on.

speaker-0 (00:58.456)
no problem Deleted, maybe you'd just give us a quick overview about what the Irish Forest Owners Group does actually.

speaker-1 (01:04.728)
So Irish Forest Owners were a not-for-profit organisation set up a number of years ago, suppose, almost as an umbrella organisation for the various private forest owner groups around Ireland. I suppose we would organise field days, website, so field days, we do newsletters and we would be kind of, I suppose, representative of private forest owners on different, kind on the government bodies.

different task force. it's just bringing the issues from the private forest owners further up the chain. And then one of our offerings is the group certification for private forest.

speaker-0 (01:48.214)
Yeah, well that's brilliant because that's one of the big things I'm hoping to talk about today. So yeah, if we can move on to that then, what is certification and why is it important for owners like myself?

speaker-1 (01:49.838)
to the person.

speaker-1 (02:00.334)
Yeah. So I certification is, first of all, it's a voluntary thing, but it's a means of verifying that you as a private forest owner, that you're managing your forest responsibly. in kind of balancing the whole nature, economics and I suppose society part of it. In Ireland, I suppose as people know, like forestry is pretty heavily regulated anyhow.

So a lot of what's involved in certification would already be covered under the current kind of Forest Services Guideline. So for example, if you're applying for a planting licence, a felling licence, a road licence, any of those activities within your forest, they have to go through the licensing system in Ireland and a lot of the criteria that are required

within that system would kind of follow through to certification. I guess the difference with certification though, it's an independent verification. So it's not connected to any government body. It's independent. It's international. We have dual certification in our group. So the IFO group certification scheme. So we are certified under FSC and PEFC. So people might know those kind of logos from any kind of timber based products.

paper, cardboard. I suppose that the most kind of prevalent one I always give is if anyone's in any of the supermarkets, you pick up a pack of toilet paper, you'll see the FSC or the PEFC brand on the back. So that's where it ends up, I guess. Where it started from was back in the 90s. FSC actually started in an attempt to, I suppose, prevent illegal logging.

in the Amazon, the FSC was kind of born out of that. So it's since developed into an international standard just to ensure that forests are managed responsibly. Obviously not one size fits all, so we can't follow the guidelines for, know, forestry in South America, for example. So in Ireland, we have our own national standards, both for PEFC

speaker-1 (04:23.19)
and FSC that take into account, I suppose, the forestry situation in Ireland. For private forest owners, I think there is a perception that certification is difficult to attain. And that's why there's the group scheme is set up to allow private forest owners to access the certification. So it's more cost effective and I suppose easier to attain as part of a group.

because you have a group manager, which is myself, managing a lot of the documentation. And because you've, I suppose you have numbers then, it's a reduction then in the cost of applying for certification.

speaker-0 (05:05.238)
And once I have my certification and we'll talk through the whole process, how the individual application falls into the group system. But what will it give me? Why do I need it? mean, I think I'm managing my forest well. I just want to sell my timber. I'm adhering to all national standards. What will certified forests, what advantage does it confer on the owner to have that certification?

speaker-1 (05:28.59)
Look, I suppose for private forest owners in Ireland who are in forestry for commercial objectives, as well as everything else, it gives you access to timber markets. there is a, for sawmills in Ireland, if you're purchasing timber, 70 % of that timber must be certified. there's the 70-30 rule. So sawmills are allowed 30%.

uncertified timber in the mix. So if you are certified, you basically have better access to the timber markets when it comes to selling. If you're certified, you bring your timber to market. If your neighbor is uncertified, you will have basically better access to the timber markets. I suppose up until now, it hasn't been as big an issue because quilltia are certified.

So the entire Queelte estate is both FSC and PEFC certified. So the Queelte timber has been satisfying the 70 % certified. But now that the Queelte supply is reducing, there's more private timber coming onto the market. I suppose because a lot of the private owners got into forestry, you know, back in the 80s and 90s. So a lot of that timber is now coming to maturity, ready for, you know, either

with thinning or clear felling. And that's why certification is now becoming a lot more important for private forest owners to meet the demands of the timber market. Look, and I suppose we're trying to increase the use of timber in construction in Ireland. All of that timber requires certification. yeah.

speaker-0 (07:18.558)
And any other advantages then? The market is a key one, especially if you're a timber producer. Anything else then that owners are finding that having this system of management and paperwork is useful for them?

speaker-1 (07:31.566)
Yeah, I suppose for a lot of private forest owners that are in our scheme, they see having a detailed 20 year forest management plan as a huge advantage. So one of the main criteria, I suppose, in terms of certification is the owner has to have a detailed forest management plan, which outlines, I suppose, the description of the forest.

all the biodiversity features within the forest, a very detailed inventory, a work plan in terms of, what the forest owner is going to be doing in the short term, in the medium term and the long term. So it gives the owner a clear picture of what they have. I suppose operations that need to be carried out short term, medium term, long term. just gives them

I suppose a better idea of what's happening in the forest and also, which is a big thing, I think, in Ireland for private forest owners is succession. So I suppose the vast majority of private forest owners in Ireland would be over 60, I'm going to say. So for them, succession is becoming a big thing. So if they have a forest and if they have a 20 year forest management plan, which you have to have under certification,

they can pass that on to the next generation. So they're not passing on just the forest, but they're passing on this really valuable management plan, which is important because we don't have, I suppose, a tradition of forestry in Ireland, like we do farming, agriculture. we're not, I suppose, again, we don't have the culture of forestry. So all of that is, a lot of the forest owners are

first generation forestry owners. So again, having this forest management plan helps them passing on the knowledge as well to the next generation. So that's also really beneficial if you take the commercial side of it.

speaker-0 (09:39.052)
Yeah, I think Kathleen, just on that, I think someone who has bought a forest in the past or bought forests, if I had a management plan to look at prior to thinking of whether I'd buy a forest, it would be a big advantage if the owner goes to sell. I think for me, I think, yeah, if I ever plan to sell these forests, then having a management plan that I can use as part of the sale should help the sale of the forest, to be honest. So I know we...

we would hope that owners would hold on passing to the next generation. But that's, guess, also a possibility for some people. Yeah. And so you mentioned Kilchia as having certification. And I understand that a good few of the larger pension funds that are operating in Ireland. But then after that, who already has certification under your group scheme? And maybe just if you could point to that a wee bit.

speaker-1 (10:13.922)
Yep, that's a good point.

speaker-1 (10:33.102)
Yeah. So I'll bore you with a couple of figures. So there's roughly in 1000 hectares of forested land in Ireland, 11.6 % of the total land area of Ireland is under forestry. Currently, the 8 % of that total is Quilte and the entire Quilte estate is certified with the remainder then. So I suppose there's roughly again, you know, 42 % of forestry in private ownership.

There's a very tiny percentage of that is certified. So there's only about 5 % of the private estate of forestry in Ireland certified. That equates to a very small number of forest owners. So obviously there's the investment funds, but then private forest owners, I'd say there's about 50 in total, which makes up about 36,000 hectares.

of the private forest estate in Ireland that's certified. very small. In our group, have, so a lot of the Northeast forestry group members are certified. We have a few members up in Donegal, Wattford, Wexford, Cuppell & Kerry, West Cork. So, and they would range then from five hectares right up to maybe 150 hectares would be one of our bigger owners. So a mix.

speaker-0 (11:58.382)
It's already good.

speaker-1 (11:59.15)
There's a huge, it just shows you the gap, I suppose, in terms of private forest certification at the moment. But that also kind of represents an opportunity for private forest owners to come on board. I suppose it is increasing the certification of the private sector is really key to supporting Ireland's kind of growing timber market. That's why I suppose we're keen to, I suppose, educate private forest owners as well on the benefits.

of certification.

speaker-0 (12:30.102)
Yeah, and just to bring you back a wee bit, you mentioned that if the timber mills are buying, have to maintain a ratio of certified to uncertified timber. would it be fair to say then that although, as we've talked about, having a management plan is going to be of benefit to an owner with a plantation at any age, certification becomes really, really crucial if you're actually going to be selling timber in the next couple of years. Is that fair to say?

speaker-1 (12:55.982)
I'd say it's essential, not kind of optional at the moment because there's sawmills actively seeking private certified timber at the moment. So again, I suppose, and if you're close to even thinning or clear felling, and if you're planning either thinning or clear felling in the next couple of years, it's something that you should be considering, at least considering now and maybe just.

Yeah, education yourself on what's required.

speaker-0 (13:27.214)
Okay, so let's move on then to the IFO's role offering group certification. Why is group certification more practical than individual certification for small forest owners then?

speaker-1 (13:39.148)
Yeah. So for a small private forest owner, will be cost prohibitive. I supposed to go to loan and the cost of the audit alone on an annual basis would just be too much. So that's why within PEFC and FSE, there's a group system or a group scheme in place. So Irish forest owners are the certificate holder and then any private forest owner can become a member. So

One of the prerequisites again is the forest management plan. suppose other requirements are essentially what you're trying to do is evidence that you are managing your forest in compliance with certification. So it does mean a bit of extra paperwork. So if you're doing any activity in your forest, be it planting, felling, road construction, clear felling, all of that needs to have a kind of a documentation paper trail.

to evidence that it has been done in compliance. So the group scheme will help in that because we have all the templates that are required. We support the forest owners in all of that kind of paperwork. So the idea being that it shouldn't be an extra burden on the forest owner because essentially they're already doing.

I would say 90 % of what's required for certification. That additional 10 % is just the evidence, the paper trail monitoring. But then joining the group scheme means you have the group certification manager advising you and supporting you on all of the paperwork. So for example, last week I was down in Kerry at a kind of a, it's called a pre-commencement meeting with a forest owner.

the buyer of the timber, the contractor and the forest management company. We all met on site prior to harvest commencement. We went through all the paperwork, all of the requirements and so the forest owner, operator, the management company, everybody knew what was required then in terms of certification. So that's part of what we do as well is we make sure that all the activities are kind of done in compliance with certification.

speaker-1 (15:59.212)
We're also responsible, I suppose, for organizing and managing, I suppose, the audits. So we're audited on an annual basis. Soil Association are the certification body representing PEFC and FSC. So they would audit us on an annual basis. They would come on site. Not every site is audited every year. So that's another advantage of the group cert. They would just take a sample.

of our entire site. So for example, this year we had our audit in January, three of our sites were audited and that's all organized then by IFO and by the group manager. So again, as little, I suppose, onus on the forest owner, but then forest owner has to make sure that they are operating in compliance as well.

speaker-0 (16:56.302)
So you're paying into the audit scheme, but if your forest is picked out for a random audit, there's no extra cost there. You have to be prepared. You have to facilitate them. There's no additional cost in that sense.

speaker-1 (17:09.122)
No, isn't. So our scheme is there's a membership fee, which is very reasonable. So it starts at 400 euros for membership of the IFO group scheme. And there's a kind of a sliding scale after that, depending on the size of your forest. That's for a five year membership. So it is the idea being that it should be affordable for every private forest owner if they want to be certified.

speaker-0 (17:35.434)
Is that an annual fee? let me give you a scenario here in the Northwest where a family may have planted the farm, but the farm could be four separate blocks. And let's imagine, and it wouldn't be unusual that we have 15 hectares total across four blocks. Are they four separate membership fees or is that one 400 euro we'll say to cover that family's forest.

speaker-1 (17:38.702)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (18:01.582)
So it will depend on the forest management plan, but on that scenario I would say it's one membership fee. If the different plots are within maybe the same county, if they can be incorporated into one forest management plan and then you maybe have separate compartments within that forest management plan and that's all integrated into your inventory and your work plan.

then that will be taken as one membership.

speaker-0 (18:32.75)
Okay, very good. so you've kind of already dispelled my perception that this could be an expensive business because at 400 for four or five years, that's really good value for a family forest. Yeah, it's very.

speaker-1 (18:45.804)
ridiculously good. So the only other cost then is for the Forest Mansion plan.

speaker-0 (18:52.366)
Well that's perfect. Do we move then into the out-plan system that the Minister announced before he resigned? Let's talk about that then. I know it's been on the cards and you've been pushing and working towards it, but tell me about the out-plan system, what it is and who will use it and how it feeds in then to certification.

speaker-1 (19:12.974)
So I plan like it has been a game changer. It was released in November and what it is, it's a digital platform which is essentially a template for a forest management plan which can then be used as your entry into certification. Up until then we obviously had our own templates for the forest management plan but this kind of standardised that across the board.

It has to be completed by a registered forester. So a registered forester can log on on behalf of forest owner and complete a forest management plan online, which then would feed into our group certification scheme. Most importantly, and this was a genuine barrier, I suppose, for a lot of private forest owners in the last couple of years, was the cost of producing that forest management plan.

up until now that cost was borne by the forest owner. So the department have, I suppose, released funding or financial assistance for this to the tune of 1200 euros per high plan or per forest management plan. And that can be like any other, I suppose, application under the forestry licensing. It can be mandated to your forester. It won't cover the complete cost in all cases.

But it goes a long way towards, for the most part, guess, most forest owners in Ireland, because the majority, I suppose the average size of the private forest owner estate is eight hectares in Ireland. So depending on the size and complexity, it will go a long way towards covering the cost of your forester and producing that. So that's been a game changer.

speaker-0 (20:59.222)
Let's talk then about the steps a forest owner will have to take to get certification. think we've covered some of it, but let's just lay it out again.

speaker-1 (21:07.416)
Yeah. So if you were thinking of certification, I suppose you would first of all need to evidence ownership of that forest. So from a forest owner point of view, we'd need to view folios, maps, that kind of thing. Have a look at your entire forestry estate in terms of the size, the number of plots, the location.

And then you would work with your forester to produce the forest management plan. So IFO, we don't offer that service. Like we do have a number of foresters kind of on a panelist that are available to do forest management plans, but it's always better if you can get your own forester to do the forest management plan because they know your forest. That could take anything from a month.

or three months to produce depending on again the complexity of the forest and the availability of your forester. So once the forest management plan is kind of in draft format I would review it, I'd come and have a look at your forest and suppose just make sure that it is suitable for certification. We're not going to onboard anybody that the forest isn't suitable for certification but that's very rare occurrence.

So I do like a mini audit basically. there's any non-conformities as they're called, I'll kind of point those out. If there's anything major, we'll need to get those resolved before joining the group scheme. If there's anything minor that I know can be resolved within 12 months, we can accept you into the group scheme.

speaker-0 (22:50.214)
Just on that Kathleen, can you give me an example of one or two things that you've come across where you've said, okay, let's go extreme here. No, this forest isn't going to work for certification or maybe just the minor things that have cropped up on some of your initial pre audit. We call them inspection.

speaker-1 (23:08.058)
Yeah, yeah. I suppose a lot of stuff that might come up would be one of the major things recently has been high conservation values, which is a principle within FSC. High conservation values would be ecological or kind biodiversity, archaeology that's of critical importance to the state or, you know, within. And if your forest contains something,

that is considered high conservation value that needs to be mapped, needs to be screened and it needs to have management or needs to be included in the management. that is something that is I suppose kind of really important to have completed. If it's not completed, it is a major nonconformity. So that would all have to be screened and mapped before

accepting anybody into the team.

speaker-0 (24:08.19)
Kathleen, you mentioned archaeology there. I mean, it would be fairly standard. We'd have lots of ring forts and archaeological features within plantations. Now, newer standards would mean that you don't plant near them, but some of the older plantations may have planted right up to the edge of ring forts. If you landed onto my plantation now and that was the case, is that an example where we would have to be dealt with differently?

speaker-1 (24:29.612)
No, that's fine. It would need to be because your forest management plan is a 20 year plan fromcathe date that you join certification. If, and for example, a lot of the plantations that are currently coming to Clearfell may or were planted under the old forestry services guidelines, which had, I suppose, different requirements for, for example, permanent water courses, archaeology.

So what you have to include then in your forest management plan is when you're restructuring the forest, that you're taking into account setbacks for archaeology, setbacks for permanent water courses, you're, know, 15 % biodiversity, planting native trees, you know, along the edges, all of that. So as long as that is dealt with in the forest management plan and when you're coming to restructuring after

maybe a clear fell that you're restructuring within the relevant guidelines of the day. Just because previously, like as you said in your example, the forest might have been planted right up to an archaeology site or right up to the edge of a permanent water course. Again, as long as you understand how to deal with that in the restructuring and that's included in the forest management plan, that's fine.

Certification like forestry, FSC and PEFC understand that things happen in forestry like the storm, Aowin, you know, where there's wind blow and maybe a forest has to be clear felled earlier than anticipated because of wind blow, that's fine. You know, it takes into account outside, I suppose, influences that happen, which are outside of the owners control.

speaker-0 (26:26.508)
Okay, so again, where were we there? We're more or less saying you've appointed a forester after you've established ownership and you're doing your audit. Yeah. Yeah, we're talking about that. So then you recommend then on the basis of your initial inspection, any other things that need to be flagged? Is that it?

speaker-1 (26:45.974)
Yeah, yeah. So during my internal audit, I will look at all of the criteria. So there's 10 criteria in FSC and PEFC. Mostly they kind of reflect each other, so they kind of mirror each other. So I will go through all the criteria in detail and make sure that you're kind of ticking all the boxes. If I feel there's any gaps, minor or major, I flag them. We'll get those resolved with their major before you join the scheme.

If they're minor, we'll have 12 months to resolve them. So then once you're in the scheme, the requirements and the responsibility of the forest owner is that anything you're doing in your forest, you flag it to your group manager. So you flag it to me. Even if you're walking in the forest, notice rubbish, you notice any maybe invasive species or any plants that you're unsure of, even noticing

other wildlife in your forestry that's positive. All of that, if you can keep a diary or send a WhatsApp picture to me, all of that is kind of recorded in your annual monitoring. So there is a responsibility on the owner to basically be monitoring their forest on an annual basis. and it's useful that there's a small two page template that the owner fills out at the end of every year.

going through any activities, but also going through what's been noticed in the forest. So that's also useful to bring people, I think, closer to the forest. know, again, a lot of people say that a lot of forestry was planted 20, 30 years ago and the gate was closed and, you know, the owner never came back in because it was just assumed that I don't need to manage this now for the next 20.

25 years until it's ready for an operation. But I think having the certification brings owners a little bit closer to the forest because they have to be kind of monitoring it on a fairly regular basis. So that's one of the responsibilities of the owner. Also, if you're planning any activity, if you're doing even any little bit of maybe spot spraying, forestry roads, if you're planning a thinning, road construction.

speaker-1 (29:10.254)
You have to let your group manager know basically and then I will make sure to send you all the paperwork that's required. I can liaise with the contractors. I can liaise with the buyers and just make sure that all of the paper trail is in place.

speaker-0 (29:29.502)
And so, and I think I'll flag that one because, so it would be highly common across Ireland for farmers to have both chain saws and knapsacks. They're not certified to use either legally. And in that sense, am I right in saying they're not allowed to perform those functions, use those, use that equipment in their forests without actually being certified?

speaker-1 (29:54.05)
Yes, that's one thing. that does, I suppose, cause a lot of questions, I suppose, for forest owners, because like you said, a lot of farmers, they're doing chainsaw work and knapsack spraying for years without being certified officially to do so. That is an issue for certification. So essentially any activity that's done within the certified forest area has to be done in compliance.

A lot of some of the principles are to do with health and safety. I suppose that comes into play then with chainsaw use. Use of pesticides is another thing that comes into play then with anybody who's doing any spraying. So I suppose the options are you go and do a chainsaw course yourself and a pesticide youth course, or you need to bring somebody in that has those qualifications. Now, in some cases I've had farmers who have, you know,

gone off and done those courses and are actually really happy that they have because they've learned something as well. that is one of them. I suppose it is a kind of a restriction for the smaller private forest owner. Other than that though, I suppose a lot of the forestry operations are you're going to be using contractors. So they're really the only two cases that could be problematic. again, where it would be problematic is if your forest is audited, if an auditor notices

that there's been spraying, that there's been timber cots, it even branches or one tree that's been cut down, they'll need to see evidence that it's been done in compliance.

speaker-0 (31:36.064)
Interested in being a guest or in advertising your service or ideas to the sector? Then get in touch. The podcast is published and promoted across all the major platforms. Interviews are recorded remotely and professionally edited. I also offer short video reels which are useful for promotion with full video podcasts available on request. Okay, now back to Kathleen. I would have been caught here because I am and I'm not certified at this point, but I, I,

Yeah, wind blow, trees across the forest road and I just went out and I snipped them up and got them off the road. in that sense, yeah, I haven't got my chainsaw course. So yeah, that's a good example of the flag and people need to think about that too.

speaker-1 (32:21.858)
Yeah, and I think like in the long term, it is a positive thing. know, I mean, getting being aware of of, you know, the dangers of chainsaws and pesticides and all of that. But if just on that note, you're not going to be kicked out of the program immediately if issues are found, depending on the severity of the issue, you're given time to resolve the issues. So they're fair enough that way.

And they'll work with you. Like all the auditors that I've worked with are fair. They don't want to fail a whole group search. They appreciate that private forest owners, farmers for the most part, they're doing their best to, I suppose, make sure that we pass the audit. I mean, if there's certain things that are just blatantly out of compliance, then they'll have to flag.

speaker-0 (33:16.974)
No, that's all good. Okay, so we understand now as potential owners what we have to do on an annual basis, which is basically collect information, gather our observations. And you're dead right, that's very useful because I know myself that from visiting my forest, it could be a couple of months until I'm back. And if you have a note of a problem or something that needed rectifying, well, at least you have it on paper and it's almost a reminder that you need to check that the next time a block drain or something simple.

So all that stuff sounds good. Now, let's move on then to the forest, a forestry professional who's helping me manage my forest. What do they have to do over and above what they're doing at the minute if I suddenly tell them, listen, I want certification, please do my A plan. What other obligations does it put on them and maybe even on contractors coming on site?

speaker-1 (34:08.174)
Just being aware of what's in the forest management plan first of all. So obviously you're forester, we'll prepare the forest management plan. If you have any contractors coming in, there is a summary plan that's available. We don't expect all contractors to read all of the forest management plan, but just being aware that this is a certified forest and there's extra obligations in terms of harvesting.

One of the big things that comes up is deadwood retention. So they need to be aware that they need to leave some deadwood lying or standing after a clear fell. And that's where say a pre-commencement meeting will be very useful because you can walk the forest, you can pick the trees that are of lesser value, or if there's been a bit of wind blow, you can leave those trees as deadwood.

And the importance of Deadwood, suppose, in kind of educating the forest owners and the contractors on the importance of leaving Deadwood. So that will be an extra responsibility. For your forest manager then, again, knowing and for yourself as the forest owner, knowing what's in the forest management plan and knowing as well that, okay, things can change and that's fine. And your forest management plan can be amended if there is changes, which is perfectly.

fine, you know, just because you've had a series of wind blows and maybe you've had to clear fell earlier than anticipated, that's not a problem as long as it's factored into a revision then of the Forest Management Plan.

speaker-0 (35:46.444)
Another question I hope I don't pull you off your train of thought here, it jumps to my mind, which is that we're talking about certification and all these different things we need to keep in our management plan and our annual observations Kathleen, but what about the financial end of it? mean, when I pay a guy to come in to do a bit of change on for me to do a little bit of road maintenance, as well as having whatever certification he needs to be there.

Do I also need to gather all those invoices and present them as part of the certification or does that ever come into it?

speaker-1 (36:17.858)
Yeah, so I suppose for any activities, I will guide the forest owner on what's Basic, I suppose, contractor obligations would be that they've got insurance, public liability, employer liability, health and safety, that all of their employees have relevant certs, tickets. Like most contractors, if they're doing work for Quiltia already,

they know the story. you know, because of the culture forest being certified. So it's nothing new really for maybe for the harvesting contractors. For smaller operators coming in, if you're getting somebody in for spraying, just making sure that they have what's called a pesticide use qualification for chainsaw operators, know, just chainsaw certs, making sure that they're up to date. But I would have a list of everything that's required.

for each activity that might be happening in the forest.

speaker-0 (37:19.566)
So rather than me trying to learn all that off and anticipate it, what I do is I say, Kathleen, I have a problem. I have a forest road, and I give you an example, where the grass has grown across it and it's on a steep hill and I don't have a four wheel drive fan. So I'm finding the wheel starting to spin a bit. So I need to bring in a guy and a digger here just to clear back that layer of grass effectively so that we get down to the forest road, which is proper gravel.

So I'm letting you know that, what do I need to do with this guy?

speaker-1 (37:50.286)
So what I would do then is I can liaise with the contractor that you've chosen, have a chat through, make sure he's got insurance, maybe make sure he's got a driver cert. And then we will do a, if it's a smaller job, we'll do a quick risk assessment and we can do a quick kind of work plan and just get signatures from all sides. That's it. That's all really. And making sure that if there's any...

it's you know maybe water courses nearby that they're protected that kind of thing so for small jobs like that a couple of forms that need to be signed and just making sure they're insured and qualified to do it.

speaker-0 (38:32.558)
Yeah, well, I'm more reassured now because Kathleen, you're there at the end of the phone by the sound of this and you're here to help an owner through it because for an owner, especially people of a certain age, to start to deal with some of those additional requirements is a bit, but really what you're saying is that that's your role as groups, as a certifying officer, that you're helping the owner to pull that together.

speaker-1 (38:53.868)
Yeah, so I coordinate all the paperwork. Document management, that's kind of what my responsibility is. And I will try and be on site, I suppose, as much as possible for operations. Obviously smaller TAF, it's just not feasible and practical for me to be on site for every single activity. But for, you know, kind of bigger operations, I'll make sure that I'm on site as well for the commencement of the operation.

So basically, think communication, and this is what I would try and bring across to any forest owner who is a member or is thinking of being a member, communication is key. So always think of your group manager or think of certification anytime you go into the forest and think, is what I'm seeing today or what I'm doing today, do I need to let my group manager know? Do I need to send a WhatsApp? If you do, I'll react.

it and I'll let you know if there's any documentation required or just if a photo is required, whatever it might be. And then it's my responsibility to save all that documentation so that it can be presentable to the auditor on an annual basis. So a lot of that paperwork headache is taken from the private forest owner.

speaker-0 (40:12.502)
No, very good. Another thing that occurs to me, we talk there that we have our plan and assuming the plan doesn't change and we've a 20 year management plan, there is no need to redo the I plan at that point. That'd be right.

speaker-1 (40:27.342)
Sorry, you do, yes. You have to revise it every five years. Okay. So even if there is no changes, it's just a revision and it's just dated that it's been revised. There might not be any changes to be made, but that has to be done.

speaker-0 (40:42.966)
And just again on the Aplan system, if there is a major change, let's say I enter the scheme and I'm very gung-ho on a simple Clearfile method, and during the couple of years I decide, you know what, I'm going to move to CCF. At what point can I reapply to avail of the Aplan management grant, or is that a one-off grant only for the forest?

speaker-1 (41:08.814)
So that is a question I have for the department at the moment and I'm just waiting for clarification. So at the moment, I'm only 100 % sure that you will get that 1200 euro grant at the outset. For each revision, each five year revision, it's unclear yet as to whether there will be finance available for it. I suppose the idea being

there might be major revisions, but then again, you might have major revisions. So at the moment, I'm, yeah, I'm not clear on that.

speaker-0 (41:43.33)
No, and I think in most cases, once you do it once, that will be it. There'll be minor revisions, as you said, you'll have all the bones and the whole framework for your forest provided and after that it should be straightforward. So we have our plan where we know how to manage it on an ongoing basis. How many years do we need to keep this going? And is it then a continuous process for the lifetime of the forest effectively?

speaker-1 (42:13.514)
it is your choice being very blunt I guess the main benefit is when you are bringing your timber to the market. So if you are currently on a thin clear fell rotation once you've clear felled then you start to replant you could decide at that stage that you want to stay in the certification scheme even though you might not.

be selling timber again for maybe the next 20 years. If you stay in certification, there'll be very little required because there'll be very little activity, I suppose, within the forest for the next, you know, whatever, 10 or 20 years. Or you could decide that you would prefer to exit the certification scheme at that stage and maybe look at it again in 15 years time. I think that's coming up now a lot more.

because there's been a lot more clear fells, I suppose, this year due to wind blow, but also just due to the age of the stands. So that is coming up in conversation. And interestingly, most owners are opting to stay in because of the fact that, you know, they've got, they feel they have maybe more control because of the Guthal Forest Management Plan. They have to be in some way involved every year.

even though it mightn't be a lot of involvement if you're just starting with replanting again. But I've had a couple of members, they have replanted after a clear fell and there's no question of them exiting because it's now become a habit. I suppose it's kind of habit forming as well though, isn't it? know, good habits, you're creating good habits once you're in the system and you see that it's not onerous or it's not cough prohibitive. You don't have to do

all the paperwork yourself, it becomes a habit and you're doing your monitoring every year. You're submitting that to me anytime you go into the forest, you know, you're aware of what you need to be looking out for as well. So that's actually kind of quite heartening that people are decided to stay in the system, even though it's going to be of no commercial benefit.

speaker-0 (44:26.068)
Yeah, in the short run. Again, it's not a massive cost per acre. I imagine if you work it down, it's very, very little. Tell me this, Kathleen, I am right though in saying that the I-Plan is distinct from certification. They're two separate things. So let's say I have a 15 year old forest, is for clear year 30. I can still do my I-Plan, go through that with my forester, but not join certification. Is that right?

speaker-1 (44:53.038)
Yep, you can. So I plan is your, I suppose, a launching board. I plan is, I suppose, launched by the department to assist in certification. I suppose from the financial point of view as well. But you could have a forest management plan done through I plan, but you might have no intention of ever becoming certified. It might not be an official for you in terms of the commercial side. you don't have to go for certification.

in order to avail of IPLAN. So it's great luck for forest owners.

speaker-0 (45:26.062)
Okay, and I should have asked earlier on the certification will cover hardwoods and softwoods. Is that right, Catherine?

speaker-1 (45:33.21)
Yeah, correct. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Whatever's in your forest state as well. So it's not, it's not your timber that's certified. It's your management of the forest that's certified. So it's kind of like a mark of quality on how you're managing the forest within compliance then. you have this, there's a section in the forest management plan, which outlines your objectives. Those objectives top of the line can be commercial.

can be, you know, economic, can be high. You would have an objective of obviously certification, biodiversity, know, health and safety, and they can all have, you know, high, low, medium in terms of the objectives of your forest. And that's up to you as a forest owner to decide what are the objectives of your forest. It doesn't mean, I think a lot of people think that certification means I have to

give over a lot of my forest to biodiversity, that the commercial side doesn't come into it, but it does. Like it's a huge part of it. Yeah, I think that's sometimes a bit of a misnomer with certification.

speaker-0 (46:44.622)
Kathleen, here's another thing, if you walk through the forest on an initial inspection and you notice that there are invasive species, let's just imagine it's cherry laurel for instance. Now, I'm not sure is that actually classified as invasive, but it effectively is, or let's even say it's rhododendron. How do you approach that in the management plan and is there an obligation then on the owner to work to remove that in a short time period? how do we look at tricky problems like those because they're not cheap to

to address if those invasive species are widespread.

speaker-1 (47:16.344)
So, and we do have it, so rhododendron, laurel, deer is another invasive species, I suppose. So that's not going to preclude you from certification, but you will have to have management for that. So how are you going to manage this invasive species? And that will be based then on best advice from your forester. With deer, if you have an issue with deer, the auditors would be expecting

to see a deer management plan. So how you're going to manage deer in terms of, you have a stalker? Is there, what are the numbers of deer? Are they causing damage? What's your maybe targets for the stalker every year? And that's a separate then sort of addendum, suppose. It's a separate management plan and the same with any other invasive species. Doesn't preclude you. So they're looking for perfect forests. They're looking for

evidence of how you're managing the issues that might be within your forest. So again, working with your forester to see how you're going to manage whatever invasive species is in your forest management unit.

speaker-0 (48:31.34)
Is there any other unusual scenarios like that that come up? That there's something comes up through joining a certification or those initial inspections that people aren't expecting and how do you deal with them?

speaker-1 (48:43.608)
Yeah, so couple of things that come up that are easy to fix would be rubbish in your forest. I suppose auditors, they are looking for a certain problem, so rubbish is always an easy one. You know, that's not going to fail you, but it's easy to rectify. So we always know who's going to get a site visit every year and we always have a couple of weeks to prepare. So it's easy to do a walkthrough of your forest.

and just have a check for rubbish and, you know, pick it up and clear it. We had an interesting one recently. Forest owner was working in conjunction with their local gun club and they had a pheasant rearing pen within the certified part of the forest. The auditor and I didn't have an understanding of what a pheasant rearing pen was, to be perfectly honest with you.

So we got a minor nonconformity for that because the auditor was under the impression that the pheasants were being released into the certified forest. And that would cause an issue because then the pheasants would be maybe competing with the native wildlife. But it wasn't the case. It was purely a rearing pen for a couple of months. And then those pheasants were being taken elsewhere.

Things like that pop up every now and then that you just don't expect. And we had a previous audit on that same site and it was a different auditor, but they had not picked up on the pheasant pen as being a potential issue.

speaker-0 (50:27.47)
But it wasn't in the management plan either, Kathleen, I presume.

speaker-1 (50:30.572)
Now it was in the maps, it was in the maps, but there was no description of why the pheasant pen was there. So all we had to do then was get some evidence from the gun club stating the number of pheasants, the length of time they were going to be there, where they were going to be released to. So it was easy to resolve. And again, just kind of open communication.

speaker-0 (50:54.666)
I should think about moving my poutine still then before putting it on a map maybe that could be one. Here's another question for you Kathleen, what about the boundary? Irish people never have bad neighbours, it's never them that's the bad neighbours, it's always the other guys the bad neighbour, but let's imagine there's a fence issue. I can't agree with my neighbour over fixing that fence, my trees aren't going into his farm, his cattle are coming into me. And the auditor can see that. How do you deal with that scenario?

speaker-1 (51:23.574)
Yeah, so trespassing is if the trespass of the cattle are causing damage, then that is going to be an issue. If they're not, then it's probably not an issue. That would probably come back to stakeholder engagement. And that's a big part of certification. Stakeholder engagement in terms of when you're something I forgot to mention.

So when you are creating your forest management plan, there has to be a whole stakeholder consultation that happens so that any neighboring stakeholders or for example, NPWS, EPA, Fisheries Ireland, they're all consulted when the forest management plan is being created. And if there's any comments, issues, concerns, they will come up at that stage. yeah.

speaker-0 (52:21.032)
Can you explain that? you saying that the management plan gets sent to those stakeholders for comment?

speaker-1 (52:27.086)
So the summary, not the detailed Forest Management Plan, so just a summary, a one-page summary of the Forest Management Plan would be available on request for any relevant stakeholders and that would include neighbours. So again, I suppose that's where maybe issues would come up and we'd have a whole stakeholder kind of consultation policy if there was any issues arising, how they're dealt with.

And that's something that the auditors are very cognizant of and also very au fait in terms of dealing with any kind of confrontation or anything like that. It would be very much a discussion, I suppose, that would be had with the forest owner if there was issues. then depending on, I suppose, the severity of the issues would depend on how it would be dealt with or if it needed to be carried forward.

never had any issues to be honest with you in terms of kind of boundaries or trespass. yeah.

speaker-0 (53:35.342)
Yeah, and human trespass then because I suppose you could get someone who just decides they can't buy it. But again, unless there's a bit of rubbish, there's probably not a major issue.

speaker-1 (53:44.334)
No, there isn't. There's not a whole lot you can do. I suppose insurance is another thing they look for is that you've got insurance on your forest. Kind of covers that data I suppose.

speaker-0 (53:56.622)
Public liability. Yeah, that's a prerequisite probably. Okay Kathleen, before we finish up, is there anything else that you wanted to say about certification that we didn't touch on or any other examples you wanted to give me?

speaker-1 (54:11.342)
I so. just think it's from, I suppose, the length of time that I've been at it, certification, a good group scheme. It's all about document management and communication and dispelling the myths around certification being really onerous on the private forest owners. Yeah, independently verified. Yeah. And I think once you explain what's actually involved, then

you know, most private forest owners are willing to jump in and join up.

speaker-0 (54:47.0)
Perfect. Okay, Kathleen, thanks very much for joining me.

speaker-1 (54:49.836)
Brilliant, a pleasure.

speaker-0 (54:53.358)
Thanks again to Kathleen at The Irish Forest Owners and thanks to you the listener. Please sign up to my newsletter linked below and if you can share it with a friend or colleague I'd really appreciate it. Until next time, take care.