Forestry Now

speaker-0 (00:01.784)
Welcome to Forestry Now, where we explore the forces impacting profitable and sustainable management of commercial forests and natural woodlands. I'm Dermot McNally. Today I'm joined by Column Gilhaney, establishment manager at Western Forestry Co-op, and we discuss everything you need to know if you're considering planting a new broadleaf forest in Ireland. Column gives me an overview of the financial supports, what they pay for, and for how long. He explains

The desk based and on-the-ground surveys that support new applications. There are seven distinct broadleaf forest types supported, and Column picks out the crucial aspects of each and the planting arrangements which might suit the land in question. Finally, we talk through the application process itself, how the forester manages the planting, the maintenance, and everything in between. There's a lot to take in, but no better man to talk us through it. Here's Column.

Column thanks a million for joining me. No problem. Column, maybe you'd introduce yourself and your role at Western Forestry Coop, please.

speaker-1 (01:00.654)
Thanks for having me on, Dermot.

speaker-1 (01:08.578)
Dermot, I'm the establishment manager for the company. So we've always been split kind of down the middle in the sense that there's a harvested manager and establishment manager. So I'm over the establishment team that looks after new trees going in the ground and all the projects kind of related to that, whether it be, you know, afforestation right up to reforestation. So that's kind of where where I slot in.

speaker-0 (01:30.828)
Very good. And and Colum, do you operate nationally or just geographically in the northwest or where where's your area?

speaker-1 (01:37.186)
Well, our head office is in Sligo. So we we traditionally covered kind of the west down as far as Clare, and then up maybe to Monaghan and Donegal and kind of west of that area traditionally. But as forestry has evolved and we're I suppose evolving with it, we find ourselves somewhere in the in the Midlands and, you know, down as far as kind of maybe Offaly and stuff like that now. Like so we haven't we haven't moved fully south yet, we'll say.

speaker-0 (02:01.55)
Okay. Okay. Very good. And th just today we're going to talk about the planting of broadleaves under the National Forestry Programme. But just in a nutshell, for anyone thinking of planting, what are the key financial supports and the advantages of planting trees on your land?

speaker-1 (02:19.342)
Well look from a financial perspective, there is attractive there is attractive grants, there's grants for the establishment of the forest, there's grants for the fencing of the forest, and then there's like a yearly premium which goes to the landowner every year after that. so it's fifteen years for a non farmer and up to twenty years for a farmer. And then there's some other smaller schemes too, which has a ten year payment. So financially it's quite attractive without a large, you know.

physical day to day input from the person. So, you know, the their labour costs are are minimal in from that sense, you know?

speaker-0 (02:52.546)
Yeah, and maybe you give me an example just of say if someone decides to plant under F T one, which is our native woodland scheme, what kind of payment can a farmer expect to get there? You've said he's gonna get it planted for him and maintained for four or five years to to get the trees up and growing. But what's his annual rate roughly per hectare?

speaker-1 (03:12.3)
His annual rate and the and the rates do vary roughly between about I think it's seven hundred and forty six and eleven hundred and three euro is the FT1 native woodland. Now, forest for water is a bit higher than that. It's 1142 per hectare. But so the native woodland being one of our quite common ones, it's eleven hundred and three euro per hectare per year for 20 years if you're a farmer. And probably at this moment, Dermot, because it there's a lot of attention on the small native tree area scheme.

its payment is a very attractive at it seems it's double the native woodland payment, but then it's only for ten years. So, you know, there is a balance there to kind of trade off, I suppose, you know?

speaker-0 (03:51.726)
Okay. Well, no, and it listen, in a nutshell, an owner can expect to get up to twenty thousand a hectare over the twenty years of the woodland planting. And if they're doing the small area, they could get that in in ten years a hectare. Isn't isn't that basically it for native woodlands?

speaker-1 (04:10.346)
it for native woodland. And of course it's also important to point out that they retain they can retain their bis payments on the land and also their organic payment if it was say an or if it was an agroforestry application or site, you know, as well as the forestry premium.

speaker-0 (04:25.358)
Can you maybe point out one or two big factors that any landowner should consider before planting? We've talked about the money, but what what are the one or two other big crucial things they need to think about?

speaker-1 (04:35.672)
They really need to think about the fact that once you plant a forest, it'll remain a forest, you know. And it's something that, you know, I suppose it's the same worldwide, you know, like deforestation is, you know, a bad word whether you're in South America or whether you're in Africa or whether you're here in Ireland. So you do need to be aware that if you plant a forest on your land, that that's what it'll remain. Now, in a lot of cases, you're probably returning your land to a forest that it probably was, you know, for thousands of years. So in one sense you're returning it to that, you know.

I suppose another point to make there, Dermot, would be that you really only get one shot at what type of forest that you're going to, you know, put on your ground. Now, all ground may not be suitable to all types of forests, but if you are lucky enough that you have options, you have to consider look if I plant a commercial spruce forest compared to an agroforestry forest agro forestry type forest or say a native woodland forest, once you've created that, you know what I mean, that's kind of what it's going to be forever. So, you know, you just have to put thought into that, talk to your forester.

See what your options are and probably don't make any real rash decisions on what you're going to do with your land, you know, because it's a big decision, you know.

speaker-0 (05:41.026)
Yeah, no, very good. And I mean, you've already said that the planting is paid for in the maintenance for a couple of years and that the owner generally has very little labor to put in. And I've experienced of that and it's true. But beyond that, what can an owner expect to have to do in the long term to manage? Because no one once once it's planted and established, there's no one coming in to do that part of it for you. So what will they have to do in the future, 10, 15, 20 years?

speaker-1 (06:08.174)
Well, I think, you know, people probably struggle to realize sometimes that look, they fully own the land. They fully own the trees. This is their asset, you know. And the you know, the old we've all heard the old traditional line, plant the forest, close the gate and and leave it there, you know. But people are getting more in touch with their woodlands. They're realizing from the early stages, like you mentioned some of the work that'll be down the line there, but from the early stages they can get in there, do a little bit of shaping, a little bit of cleaning maybe on their trees.

You know, make a few inspection paths you know, be become part of that woodland itself. And you know, there's lots of training days through it be by Chagas or even, you know, people like ourselves, a Western Forestry Co-op whole field days. You can gradually build up your knowledge. And as you gradually build up your knowledge, you'll be in place to know when I should be doing maybe a management plan, when I should be considering maybe a first intervention, whether it be a a tinning or a road or what it is. And as you

You have time to build up that knowledge and you have time then to get to a stage that, look, we're going to tin this forest, or maybe we're going to convert it to a continuous cover forest. Or so they can basically do as much as they or as little as they like dermot at the start and gradually, hopefully, they'll think of it like maybe their farming practice where they were working flat out every day, too with forestry. You can

build it up the bit you know, your input day by day or by month by month or year by year. And, you know, we find most owners really enjoy it once they learn that new skill and, you know, and, you know, move on down the road and watch their watch their asset grow basically in front of their eyes, you know? It's

speaker-0 (07:43.06)
You can manage part time, I think, and and that's an attraction.

speaker-1 (07:46.526)
But you think of farming practice, I suppose there was a lot of them where people fully worked on the farm too, they changed that where they tried to work a day job and then farm in the morning and evening, where the advantage I suppose of forestry is that there's no you know, you don't have to go out at any particular day, you know, you can manage it by the weather and maybe your time a bit a little bit more. So that's one of the attractive things of forestry, I suppose, you know.

speaker-0 (08:08.77)
Yeah. Well, t today we're going to be talking about trying to match the the forest that the owner will plant with the land that they have. because we we might want to plant something, the land may not be suitable. But when you make that first conversation with the owner, what do you kind of ask them to to understand what their motivations are or what what are the things that you need to find out to help them make the right decision?

speaker-1 (08:34.83)
Well, like I suppose we do get different type of inquiries, you know. So when that phone rings or I'm put in contact with somebody, I usually try and let them talk a little bit at first. So I little I get it to know what stage they are at. Like, you know, have they totally are they totally invested in one type of forestry? Have they done research on it? So I get a handle on what they know immediately and what maybe they know exactly what they want.

And then you may have you could have the other person that's maybe just just dabbling with the idea of it and they're just ringing up to see what potential options are possibly out there for them. So from that conversation, then the main thing I need from somebody is we'd say folio number. I need to do an online assessment very, very early on the site because there's a lot of environmental restrictions, as you know, there are not out there nowadays. And

The traditional thing of maybe planting more upland ground or, you know, very very marginal ground, you know, has been kind of removed in a lot of cases now. So I need to do that online assessment. So I chat to them, I can see what interest they have or haven't or what they know at this stage, and I try to get that folio number off them as soon as I can so that we both know what way we can head with this effectively. Do the online assessment, check for restrictions, whether it be

Soils, archaeology, ecology, you know, there's a good bit of information on our system, on the eye forest system, and it gives me an indication of where I can go from there. And then we can talk about the next step, you know?

speaker-0 (09:58.164)
Okay. And obviously once you get their folio it tells you how big the area is and you'll see exactly where it is in the landscape, isn't that it?

speaker-1 (10:07.444)
Yeah, exactly. Like to see, we can assess a slightly bigger area. Sometimes you'll have an owner saying, I was considering, you know, that section of the farm, but it's one folio. That doesn't really matter for the initial assessment. I just really need to see if it's nearly fully ruled out, you know, like, you know, it could be Curlew or Hen Harrier or something in that area. And, you know, I don't want to them as opposed to get excited about a project that may maybe stopped at the first hurdle, so to speak.

speaker-0 (10:32.792)
Do owners often come to you with very defined objectives like maybe planting for nature or planting for hardwood timber production or d does that come up or is it a a kind of a

speaker-1 (10:45.42)
Yeah, hardwood production is I think has dropped off a little bit from I'm speaking here from my experience, obviously. And I'd say maybe, you know, the Ash experience has put little put put some concern in some people's, you know, minds, you know. So what I've seen over the last 10 years is a change from monoculture hardwood applications, which we done quite a good bit of maybe, you know, 10 years ago, to the more native mix where you've got say five, six species.

in the you know in the forest because in those cases those forests are probably more resilient to pests and disease. you know, it's i and like there's no reason that there can't be solid timber production out of those forests if they're if they're managed. they can still provide a lot of environmental and biodiversity benefits. But there's nothing wrong with you know shaping and pruning your oak in those and have future timber and have multiple

benefits out of your forest. So so the pure is a little bit, you know, it's it's rare in this case, dermid I would say, but the the native woodland with the different mixes is is very popular at the minute, like, you know?

speaker-0 (11:51.362)
Yeah, no, you're right. When you when you look in the landscape you'll see pure beech and pure alder and pure oak quite commonly. Yeah. But d as you say, you're planting less of that nowadays.

speaker-1 (12:02.83)
Well, we are, but I suppose if you consider an oak native woodland that say if we're planting and it's brown earth type soils and you say you're planting this forty percent potentially oak going into that from day one, like they will become oak woodlands in their own rights, like down the road, like you know, so but what you're doing is there you're just putting in the diversity and make sure that they establish safely and probably in a more natural environment than they would when it's just one pure species planted from day one, you know.

speaker-0 (12:31.574)
Okay, so you've done your assessment and that'll probably even tell you, Colin what type of soil. You can probably do that from the computer in in the office, can't you?

speaker-1 (12:40.28)
Yeah, we can do that from like there's different layers there that'll tell us the soil. Now we do need to confirm this on the ground because soil plays a big, a big factor at the minute. Like, you know, so so say you're going for a native woodland, whether it's and just keeping it very simple, if it's a ver if it's a like brown earth soil, you're going towards one of the oak native woodland options. If it's a glay soil, you're going towards your alder woodlands. And if it's more of a peaty nature soil, you're going towards your birch native woodlands. And in all those woodlands, they have

similar species in them. It's just the, you know, the main species would be, you know, like each of those, the elder, birch, or oak in those scenarios. And it gives the other species a, you know, a chance to follow on after say maybe al alder has, you know, fixed the soil to make it more suitable for other species, you know.

speaker-0 (13:27.542)
What about elevation, Column? I mean, does elevation come into it here as well? Because I'm in the Midlands here. That doesn't maybe affect me, but maybe on some of the western sites is the site elevation an issue then when you go to plant?

speaker-1 (13:41.656)
Well, it's an issue as in the the situation that we at the minute have to reach a certain yield class. There's a standard on any ground like so like sitka spruce is the benchmark, even if you're planting a native woodland. And what I mean by that is it's you have to be able to achieve yield class fourteen on any of sitka spruce on any site to make it plantable effectively. So if you planted some higher elevation sites, particularly in the west.

Like a lot of them would grow native woodlands. A lot of them are probably traditionally native woodlands in the past, and they would grow a native woodland, but it might be more slow, more stunted, you know, maybe timber production mightn't be your main objective, but it'd be excellent for nature. So there is a you know current guideline of around 120 meters in the west for native woodlands. I think it's a hundred maybe hundred and eighty meters in the east. But I think you can make

cases to the department because you can have sites at that altitude, but there can be still fairly sheltered sites and and things like that. You know, and then so there is, you know, elevation places part, but a lot of that land at the minute might not qualify for other environmental reasons, whether it be high nature value or relation to the birds and stuff like that as well. Like, you know, so soil we say there we see dermot plays the bigger part at the minute. You know, I you know, we've probably heard a good bit about the soil depths and stuff like that as well in relation. So mineral soil qualifies for

Most species based on soil. Peat soils it it can qualify for planting if it's more than thirty centimeters, but it has to be native trees if it's more than thirty centimeters of peat. And then the vegetation on top also has to pass certain ecology surveys for that to happen, you know.

speaker-0 (15:16.558)
Okay, so there's a bit into it and your desk based survey and then a physical survey helps to get to the the nub of of the the issue and the and the critical factors there that will help influence the choice of of forest types then.

speaker-1 (15:30.444)
Yeah, but just on the soil, just finish it there, Dermot. like we do have the computer to give us layers, but you know, it they're not always fully accurate on the ground. We especially see that with some of the peak layers that come in. So it gives it us an indication, but obviously then we need to confirm it on the ground that it matches up to what the computer is saying, basically, you know.

speaker-0 (15:47.946)
Okay, yeah, you're you're almost doing spot checks of soil samples. Okay, well let's move on and talk through the broadleaf forest types that are supported by the government. And there's seven different ones. Let's just take them one by one. And I know there's similar features, but maybe you'll pull out the the crucial differences between them. So FT1, forest type one is native forests. What can you tell me about this?

speaker-1 (15:51.96)
Absolutely, yeah.

speaker-1 (16:14.038)
Okay, so we've probably covered a little bit on this one already. So F T one is your different native mixes based on the native woodland framework and it's based on the soil. So the as we said, the premium's the same for them all now at eleven hundred and three euro per hectare. But basically we no matter if an owner comes to us and that's what they want to plant and it is very popular at the minute, which scenario is picked is based on the soil, not you know, on a certain person preferences. So, you know, whether it's the alder one, the birch one or the oak one.

And they've got three or four main species and then some minor species as well that goes in each of the scenarios effectively, you know. So very popular. A lot of people, you know, I suppose a lot of the clients that are potentially interested in that, some people are inheriting land and they're maybe not farming themselves and they don't want to s you know, maybe sell on the land, which what they might have done traditionally, and they're trying to do their bit maybe for nature and biodiversity, and they're looking to plant, you know, a native woodland. And that's where we get a lot of inquiries currently on that, you know.

speaker-0 (17:12.076)
Yeah, and and just again on that, th the issue of the soil, I I'm right in saying that the the trees match to the soil because the soil dictates what can grow well in the forest, is that it?

speaker-1 (17:23.584)
Well, I suppose yes. And effectively if you looked at the old woodlands of those types, you know, they were on those soils effectively. Like, you know, so we've done some big sites at native woodland and when you get it right as in the match of the trees to the soil, you can see them taken off much quicker than if you get it wrong. Because I'd say when that native woodland scenario came out at first, there's probably a few examples where an owner wanted the other

type on their land and we can see now from experience where they not necessarily don't establish, they just that they're slower and then that brings other problems into into account as well. Like, you know, so birch will do well on a peaky type soil. That doesn't mean birch wouldn't do fairly well on you know, a brown earth soil, you know, like, but it seems to just take off in it. And it's obviously just more matched to I suppose old Ireland dermot, you know, the areas that had the

PD soils were probably more covered in more birch forest, you know what I mean, naturally. And that and same with the elder on the on the glaze, you know.

speaker-0 (18:21.42)
Yeah, yeah. And I suppose the an important part of trees going in the ground is how quick they can get up those first couple of feet to get above the weeds and then the next stage is is moving above the the height of browsing animals as well, just in case that's an issue. But yeah, okay. Well then the FT one, we understand that that's native forests and it's matched to the soils. And then we had touched briefly on the native tree area, which is was a scheme the government created to facilitate

planting of smaller areas and it was supposed to be a simpler application process. But tell me a little bit about how it fits under this category.

speaker-1 (18:59.106)
Okay. So I suppose in one sense it's the same people that are potentially interested, and but maybe they're just dabbling in a little bit, you know, instead of going a bit bigger. Or it could be I suppose a landowner that has a bigger farm and is maybe just maybe doing a corner of a field or, you know, like a side of a hill that's a bit hard for machinery. Like I suppose the premium is exactly as I mentioned earlier, double what the native woodland premium is, but it's only for ten years rather than the twenty. That's a you know an important point.

But it's also important to remember that in the native three area scheme, you're only getting eleven hundred trees in the hectare compared to two and a half thousand trees in the hectare, you know. So and that does make a big difference because I suppose with the small native tree area scheme, you're planting mere maybe more for just nature, where with the regular native woodland scheme, you're giving yourself the option of, you know, having timber to come out of that. Like so, say for example, you've got a log burner, like, you know, in 14, 15 years time, the tinnins out of your one hectare of a

a a site that was stocked with two and a half thousand trees, you'd have like a a world of firewood in your first tin ins, never mind what you know, the benefit to the other trees, maybe they've grown up straighter, like you know, so there's that issue in it. And I suppose from a forester's perspective, the logistics of getting the real small sites done has proven difficult because the contractors are set up that do a lot of the work on the ground, big sites, big plant crews. And if you say I've got a half hectare here that needs to be done,

And have a small bit of fencing that needs to be done and have enough tree planting for one man for maybe five or six hours, you know, they can be quite difficult to get done. You know, so it should have been probably it seemed like it was gonna be a a straightforward thing and logistically it just hasn't fully worked out that way, you know, like I mean, but it you it can have potential in the future all the same, you know.

speaker-0 (20:47.958)
Okay, so we'll move on to F T two then, which was forests for water then. And again, this is broadleaf. So what what can you tell me about that category? Well

speaker-1 (20:56.738)
When that came out first dermitt, there was great excitement because I think people thought that maybe every bit of ground they had that was, you know, basically flooded that they'd get a g a good payment because the payment is even bigger than native woodland. It's one one four two, I believe. But it isn't the case. It was more about the protection of water courses, you know, and maybe areas that there could be, you know, from the you know, the phosphorus maps, the pip maps, and you know, there was different qualifying factors. So it was more related to

How can we increase our alluvial woodlands? You know, how can we protect our water courses? But I'd say the qualifying factors weren't fully clear at first. But right at this minute, though, they were expecting the forest standards manual to be updated. I've heard it could be this week. They've recently created a layer on the eye forest system as well. So instead of, you know, us trying to figure out does this qualify for that, now I can kind of go on the eye forest system and whether I look for any other layer, I can look for the layer for forest for water. And if you're

the land that you were considered for native woodland qualifies because of that layer, you could be entitled to get the extra payment of a thousand per hectare, you know, for it. So look, it's it'd be good for the owner effectively and it should be more straightforward from now on, like, you know, which is great.

speaker-0 (22:08.438)
It's kind of a riparian planting then. Is that what that

speaker-1 (22:11.63)
Kinda. I mean it can be it doesn't it's not necessarily small areas. So we'll see I did one last year that, you know, the land just just looked a standard site, but there was it was had a dangerous like a river beside it that was at high risk of pollution effectively from land and stuff and it qualified. So I think the owner got six hectares of payment there. Do you know what I mean? So the woodland itself looked the same. You know, we didn't per per se, you know, do anything different, like, you know, apart from obviously taking into account any setbacks and you the

ground was all invert mounded and stuff like that, so there was no drains cut like but apart from that it was very similar to a standard native woodland, you know. What it's doing really is incentivising land to be planted as a native woodland close to rivers, you know, which then will protect them in the long course.

speaker-0 (22:55.586)
This podcast is kindly supported by the Irish Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. If you're thinking of planting a new forest or keen to access information on financial and technical supports to manage your existing forest, then go to gov.ie forward slash forestry for you. I'll include that link and other critical details about the guest and this topic in the show notes. Now, back to the chat.

Okay, so then forest type three is called forest creation on public lands. That's obviously not gonna affect a a private owner, but tell me a little bit about it anyway.

speaker-1 (23:32.142)
Yeah, so look, this is also I suppose it's a native woodland with a a facilities element as well. It doesn't have to have that facilities element, but we've done a big one at Clunamahan there, Clunama for the HSE. it's 104 acres. So it's basically it was it came on stream to let like public bodies basically plant land, you know, like and which wasn't the case before that. And you can add on a facilities element there. So we've 104

Four acres planted there and we've attached the facilities element, which put in paths and benches and a playground. And there was luckily there was already an existing car park. So look, it's it's a brilliant, it's a brilliant FT, not for the private owner, as you mentioned, but it's just it's there's a lot of public ground out there that mightn't be doing a lot, and it's a great use for it, like for all local communities and stuff like that. And and one great thing about this one, I suppose, Dermot, as well as the next FT, is that a lot of people they drive the roads and the seafrests and but they're not part.

forest, you know, it's not as if you can walk into a private owner's forest, you know, without permission, where when we put these paths into these forests, it gets gives a chance for the public to immerse themselves in a woodland and see what's going on going on in there and that kind of stuff, you know. And that one we planted actually had the three woodland scenari soil scenarios in it. So it was gave a great variety and and people can learn that way. And we've actually done several field trips there as well. Like, you know, so it's great to see public bodies

embracing this now and there's more of them popping up around the place, you know.

speaker-0 (24:59.478)
Yeah, and and if there is someone from one of Ireland's public agencies, I mean, in essence, I presume that they get the land planted and maintained and the fencing grants apply, but maybe there isn't a premium or something.

speaker-1 (25:11.736)
Premium is there now, Dermot. You know, yeah, it wasn't actually a couple of years ago and I stand to be corrected, but I'm nearly posit obviously there's only a few of these pop up, but the premium it I believe is there now. But maybe I'd need to maybe want to fully fact check that one to be a hundred percent sure. But that did change, I think, in this programme.

speaker-0 (25:28.086)
Well, it's great because I I know a a spot that was left to my own council here forty years ago and it's been a green field since and it the location it'll never be developed into anything else. And a local group here are trying to encourage the council to consider planting it and d this type of a program makes it easy.

speaker-1 (25:44.652)
Just to say it arm too, you see the premium, then if there is a group like that, they could potentially use that towards future maintenance of PATs and things like that once the first company is, you know, has moved on or their their term is up, we'll say, you know? Yeah.

speaker-0 (25:56.12)
Yeah, absolutely. And then F T four is the neighborwood scheme. So this is something a little bit similar.

speaker-1 (26:02.402)
Yeah, it's quite similar in the sense that and we've also completed one of these very recently too. it's where a private owner plants a very similar woodland and they're basically allowing the public into it for like a minimum minimum of seven years. And when they go into that scheme and they've agreed to that. So say when we do the application, we have to show that there'd be enough of a footfall, we'll say, in a local community, and that people you know we usually get letters of support.

Just to say, yes, we're excited about this, you know. So we created one recently in South Leitrim. It's it's close to local amenity already. It's got pats in it, it's got we put benches in it, we put a tree trail into it, like you know, and it's it's all deer fenced as well. So look, it's brilliant because people can get in there, they can, you know, and it's amongst the trees and see what's happening. And you know, it's brilliant and people are very excited about it. So look, it's great for an owner to do that, you know, like they're you know, it's you know, many people like to keep private and you know, they wouldn't consider it.

But you know, there is a few out there and you know, people are usually very happy about them when they're established.

speaker-0 (27:01.826)
Yeah, brilliant. Okay. And I presume that the benefit of getting some pathways also applies in the neighbourhood scheme.

speaker-1 (27:08.392)
it does. And you know, even for an owner down the the road, I'm a big fan of people having access into their forest no matter what type of forest that they plant. So in this, we put in the pat. We actually focus the budget very much on the pat because, you know, another bench can be added, you know, down the road. There's no problem, but it's very hard to add in more pats. So if we get a nice spread through the forest, it means that the owner can or can check its forest at any time or a forester very easily, even when it's going through that early canopy, you know, a closing stage.

speaker-0 (27:36.834)
Let's move on to F T five. This is a an interesting one. This is called Emergent Forest. What can you tell me about this forest type and what supports can an owner get here?

speaker-1 (27:46.68)
Very similar to the forest for water. When this came out first, there was a good bit of excitement about this, but we found it very quickly that you know it rules out peat soils. So I would say that the predominant emergent forests that I've seen have, you know, are when birch colonize you know peat soils, but they don't actually qualify. So it has to be mineral soils, you know. But I suppose what they were the plan here was that, you know, areas of mineral soils that have maybe been encroached by trees and different shrubs that

encouraging landowners to hold on to them rather than bringing in a big excavator and clearing them because obviously they're doing a lot for nature and biodiversity as they are. So this year we've we've done two this year, I think. there's not that many of them popping up because you know you have to qualify under certain rules. It's we we fence them off. We, you know, maybe do a bit of supplementary planting. It has to be able to close canopy within six years, you know, like so it there can't be large, large open spaces that we can plant

And the last one we done there, it's tied into we'll say a new forest of greenfields and there was this area of a hill that was mineral soils and qualified. There's a three hundred and fifty euro per per year premium on it. So it it's a lot less, but you're, you know, it's it's still ground that you haven't had to invest a lot in, you know, and you're it you're probably not sacrificing farming it because it wasn't being farmed, I suppose, in a lot of cases. So look, it's it's it's good, but it just, you know, you have to get ones that qualify for it.

speaker-0 (29:10.806)
And now T six, th this sounds a little bit more like the old way of planting before we had the native woodlands. This one's broadleaf, ochre beach. T talk me through this one, please.

speaker-1 (29:21.996)
Yeah, well the the F T six is of course your commercial oak or beech woodland, probably slightly more common of oak, where you know, the d the taut on oak planting has varied through the years, whether you put in a nurse species, whether you plant them incredibly close together, whether you you know further apart, you know, obviously trying to encourage them to grow up and grow straight. But it's probably found out to be the pure planting is best, you know, for the trees. So it's a commercial oak or beech woodland. And I haven't

personally seen too many of them established in the last couple of years is just because like we said the native woodland is is you know taken off as and seen as maybe a a safer option. You know what I mean? Like so but I'd say there would probably be more of them down the south than there is more in you know my geographic area I would say. Like you know like so we know we need them too. It's great. Do you know what I mean? Like you know it'd be potential veneer oak woodlands in back in Ireland, you know, be fabulous, you know?

speaker-0 (30:17.782)
Am I right in saying that when you plant an oak or beach under the F T six, you're using a provenance that i you know is designed or is has you you hope is gonna produce straight timber. Is that right? Whereas on the the native woodlands you're getting Irish provenance only oak or oak. Would that be right, Car?

speaker-1 (30:38.242)
Well, it's right in the sense that you you with the native woodland it it has to be native, w you know, oak. Like, you know, where the F T six doesn't have to be. Obviously beach is naturalized here, but it's not, you know, native. Where with the F T six you can source oak from elsewhere in you know, like alongside has its plant passports if you you know, it's so you can go to that lens if you want to. Now a lot of people probably plant still the Irish one in that ground, but you know, but you have the option, you know, so

speaker-0 (31:05.94)
Okay. You mentioned the different trails and I remember seeing them oak planted with Scots pine, but you say this is now more a pure planting. And what kind of numbers per hectare do w will you plant off F T six and maybe F T one as well? They're probably similar, are they?

speaker-1 (31:21.694)
They're all similar now, Dermot. Like, you know, like so as in, you know, the FTU so the NTA is different, you know, it's three by three meter space and you know, eleven hundred trees, but FT one it's two by two meter. so is the F three and F four. The the wild things are sorry, the emergent woodlands a bit different, obviously, because you're only, you know, planting in patches through an already established thing, you know. So and obviously the agroforestry, you know, FT, it's different altogether, you know, those big layouts, you know, things there. But

Look, the standard they were varied at one stage, as in in the last program, or was the last program, oak was planted at three thousand three hundred stems per hectare, which was the two by one point five. That was changed, you know, to be all two by two meters. I obviously it's more convenient for all of us in one sense paperwork wise. I'm not sure was there a silver culture reason to change that or not, you know, per se, you know.

speaker-0 (32:12.072)
Let's see, F T seven then is the last broadleaf category that an owner can plant and it's called diverse broadleaf. So so tell me about that one.

speaker-1 (32:20.6)
So it's look, it it was there was a lot of birch woodlands planted back, you know, and alder woodlands in you know, pure. So we'll say if you went back ten years ago, in the West in particular, you were either planting, I suppose, spruce forests or you were planting alder woodlands, and then when and of course ash woodlands before the you know, it was no longer available, and then they brought out the improved or they worked on the improved birch. So improved birch became an option as well, like you know, so

They've obviously the zetter you can go for sycamore, you can go for chestnut, anything on the approved list there. But the ones I mentioned there were just the more common ones, you know. They've fallen off a bit in popularity, but relation to new pressures like deer and stuff like that, I'm seeing you know, an increase in the elder being planted now, you know, because you know, one of our few species that isn't under severe pressure from deer. So say for example, if you're only planting a small

If you had say I have two hectare site that you had intended to plant with native woodland and you know, maybe the fencing allowances don't cover it, some of those owners are considered alder woodlands because it can be their only way in the early stages to get that forest established, like you know, so not necessarily for the reasons we'd like them to play see plant an elder, but understandably so, I suppose, from a financial perspective, you know?

speaker-0 (33:38.766)
Yeah, very good. And here's a general question. I'm planting, I suppose it it it's probably more relevant on the FT six, but it it might come into play in the F T one as well. I mean, I'm planting, but I want to have some nice flowering trees at near the fringes of my forest. Can we can we work in a few hawthorn that might have the leaf in the in the springtime or gelder rose? Or is there a bit of flexibility with where you place some of these trees?

speaker-1 (34:07.886)
Okay, in relation to the, you know, the the we'd say the pure oak or the pure beech, they were considered pure if there were over seventy percent of one species. So that was the 'cause kinda the number where we were at, like, you know. So in most cases, because you have an aim there of, you know, say in that type of FT of producing commercial timber, you'd see maybe ten percent diverse going in there, like, you know, like just for a bit of variety and stuff. But there

More commonly on the edges or towards the entrance or if it's, you know, facing a house just to maybe create a tiered effect or or something like that. In relation to the native woodlands, what you're looking at there, you know, the the the species planted, it depends on which scenario it is. So you would say, for example, if it was an alder woodland, you're gonna have half the site alder, but you're gonna have 10% of different oak, you're gonna have 10% birch, ten percent roan. You as a forester go in and look at the ground.

You'd maybe plant your minor species like your flowering trees, like you said, but they'd want to be more towards the edge or maybe more on the edge of a ditch or on the opening because you don't want them you don't want them to get completely smothered in there. Say your ten to fifteen percent of oak. You know, you do want your oak to take off. So it's often the the first species in in saying if I was doing an alder woodland that I'd I'd plant or planned the plant. So I might go around marking suitable spots fairly evenly dispersed around the site, but

Where you can get maybe groups of fifty in here, there and and then you plant the rest of those minor species first and then fill in the gaps with whatever is the predominant species, like you know, like so. But we do take into account, you know, kind of houses and stuff like that and try to create, you know, a tiered effect and make it look a bit landscaped at the edge where possible, you know?

speaker-0 (35:45.422)
Yeah, I've seen some of these planting maps where you've done exactly that column. You've you've put clusters of oak maybe through the forest first and then planted all the minor species afterwards so that you you you kinda have focal points where if you want to go in and do some maintenance off your oak, the oak are close together. Am I right in saying that?

speaker-1 (36:03.404)
Yeah, very much so, Darmott. Cause like if you think about if if it is a site, I'm just using the Alderwoodland here for an example, like, you know, that only has ten to you know fifteen percent oak, you want those oak to establish, you know what I mean? You want to make sure that they get you get going. So if we decide to plant them in groups of fifty around the place, when the lads are going in to do maintenance, they know when they find one, you know, there's fifty there, you know, or or predominantly there's fifty there. And

You know, down the road, of course, we don't need all those 50 to survive to, you know, like so. But that's the plan is to get as far them on as possible. Like, you know, so those clusters are, you know, to grow in little units themselves. And there is no point if you have land that say half of it's, you know, very good and half of it's marginal. And, you know, you put all your oak on one side and then you put all alder on the other side, because you also want to try and get some oak in maybe slightly higher spots in there, or you know, it's very resilient oak. You know, it can take a lot of

a a lot of different situations, you know. So you want to get some in there to try and have something coming on beside your birch and aldery species, you know?

speaker-0 (37:06.592)
It's a bit of a balance and act, I'd imagine, if you have something like Alder that you know, if it really gets going it can throw a fair shade. So you if you've got a very intimate mix, some of your smaller, slower species could struggle a wee bit. Do you find that, Colum?

speaker-1 (37:20.514)
Yeah, that's why we'd never plant elder, you know, intimately, you know, with other species. Like, you know, so it's you know, it's usually planted in groups, or it's planted like as I said, if it's the predominant species, the other species are planted in groups, or if they're minors, they're planted towards the edge. Because obviously the elder being a pioneer species, but it's probably designed to let you know, let's recolonize this ground, let's produce a big leaf, let's kill off the grasses where possible, and then

Over a much slower time than we're trying to achieve now, you know, convert the whole thing as the alder maybe started to die back into a woodland, you know. But we're trying to create it. That probably happened over the initial phase in the past, maybe over 20, 30 years, you know, the other species started to come in, where we're trying to get those other species started nearly from day one, you know. So that's why we have to be very careful of the placement of them. I do have some owners who

You they had some ground, wasn't that suited to better species. They they planted their their alder first, but they've it two, three years after we started adding in oak and they then managed the light, you know, around those oak, you know, like, you know, by either pruning a few branches, you know, branches back or do a little bit of coppicing or stuff like that. Like but that that takes a bit of a hands on approach, but it's nice work, you know.

speaker-0 (38:32.312)
talked a good bit there now about the diverse types and the t planting arrangements. Let's now just assume that the owner has pulled the trigger, they've made the application and they've got a successful a grant award that they're allowed to plant the the species they want in in the location they want. They're now ready, they sign the contracts and they hand them back to yourselves. What do you look after from there on in?

speaker-1 (38:55.5)
Okay, so depending on the time of the year, Dermot, you know, if it's you know, planting season traditionally runs from sometime in November. Depending on what you're planting and species available, it can run right up to June. So if it's in planting season or not, we'll say we've got the contracts, we're they're they're mad to go. So the first thing we'll be looking at is ground preparation and fencing. So if it's the right time of the year or almost there, we can prepare the ground by doing the fencing that's required.

In most cases now it's doing the invert mounding to prepare for the trees and we can have that ready then and we're taking care of all that, like you know, and then it's important that we leave access through the forest so it can be maintained as it goes forward. So I think that's very important. And then we'll organize the trees, ordering the trees, getting them in the ground, getting them planted. And when all that's done, we'll do, you know, there's a lot of paperwork afterwards to get it submitted to department. The owner will get their payment, you know, a few weeks later, and then we'll maintain it for

Four to six years. So it's so a lot of people thought it was just a term of four years. But what it is is there's a lot of security there for landowners. If we're in a contract with you or the same with any other forester, the department releases us, you know, when they consider the forest established. So the earliest that can happen is four years. And so at four years' time, if everything's established and free grown, we'll submit a form three to the department and they'll sign it off. And then we're released from our obligation at that stage.

if it takes another year, then that's what that's what's happened, you know.

speaker-0 (40:24.894)
In essence, the landowner has the confidence to know that you have a vested interest as the company that plants because you don't get fully paid until the trees are established.

speaker-1 (40:34.542)
Absolutely. Yeah. So look, there's we get the establishment grant to establish the forest. That's what it was, you know, effectively designed for. But the department holds back twenty-five percent of it, and that's paid once that form three is signed off, we'll say four to five years later. So we've invested interest to make make sure that the forest is up to standard at that stage and we'll ensure it is.

Now we still get, you know, obviously owners and understandably so, you know, ringing us and s saying, we've seen a few failures and stuff like that, like but they have to be aware it's it's it's you know, it's not your garden, you know, it's a big site and we'll be going in and doing replacements as they're required, you know, where the target being about ninety percent of the forest evenly dispersed, established for farm three stage, like you know, so

speaker-0 (41:17.132)
Yeah, so some losses are natural and that's to be expected. There's a technical thing you mentioned twice and I must pull you up on it and maybe you could explain it in layman's terms. Invert mounding. We talked about there was an old mound drain system and maybe you could distinguish them both for anyone who has never planted before or been on a commercially planted forestry site.

speaker-1 (41:40.014)
Okay, so I suppose way back it was was plowing and that was changed to of course most people understand the idea of plowing where you just plough a ridge and you plant it on the ridge, it was determined not to be very wind stable. It depended on which the way the wind came. So there was big changes, and that was changed to mounding, drain mounding, where an excavator would pull a fairly shallow drain every eight meters and it would turn out four mounds two meters apart between those, you know, and that was considered

standard practice for you know quite a long time and it's still acceptable on on sites not on native woodland sites but it is accepted still but it has to be there's a lot of restrictions in it with water and where you can go to a how close to a water and all that kind of you know stage. Now invert mountain is complete different it's where you actually turn the sod and put it back in where it was effectively. So you're taking a scoop with a you know like usually a two foot bucket and you put it back into the same piece of ground.

Now the automatic thing might be why bother then if you're not doing a drain, but that piece of ground, you know, it's a weed-free piece of soil for you know that the plant to have a start in in life, you know, it gives it a chance the first season it'll usually be fairly safe from weeds. That tossing of the mound, it actually loosens the soil a bit too. So if you actually plant it straight into the ground with a spade, the spade itself can compact the soil.

And you know, that just you know, it can be hard for the tree to get going. And then it's surrounded by grass and weeds as well. So it can be hard established, you know. And even an invert mounded derm, it can, you know, it can it can raise the position slightly as well. So it's slightly up, you know, in the air, you know. And in a very short time that'll settle down. And like within the first season, it'll look like there was no mounting done at all. So even though when the job is done, like you know, you've dug up the ground to a certain degree, but it you know, it it falls back in and settles in time.

And you know, you just have a natural looking floor. And I suppose I'd also say it is it's very good for the lads planting and for maintenance because you're not falling into these mound drains once they vegetate over, you know. So even future tinnings and inspection paths and potentially harvesting, you haven't got these drains every eight meters that you have to, you know, navigate, you know.

speaker-0 (43:49.89)
Yeah, I have fallen on my head into many of them. So yeah, I I like the invert mounding system. Before the landowner brings you in to do all the work you've talked about, to do the fencing and do the invert mounding and plant the trees, what way sh do you like to find the farmland ideally? Do you like to f find it grazed to the nub or how do you want to see this field before the trees actually go in?

speaker-1 (44:14.626)
Now, in an in an ideal world, Dharmot, yeah, eating off as best as possible because you know, like if you're going into you know, a site that has, say, a heavy rush in it, and it's can be hard to get a layout right. It can be hard to have even the excavator, you know, if you think about he's trying to do mounds and yes, his he'll flatten the rushes and whatever to a certain degree, but it's still hard to get it a n nice and straight the line so that the trees are are nice and straight, you know. also if you have you have kind of like some winds or bushes like that, I mean

You can have 15% of your ground that, you know, isn't planted and can qualify for bio. So in other words, you know, that can be setbacks from houses, rivers, you know, ditches, et cetera. But if you have areas say covered in wins, that has to fit into that slot into that as well. So you're what you're doing there is, you know, you're sacrificing a potentially payment if you go over that 15%. So if you can clear those, you know, wins.

and then you can mound in there. Yes, the winds will say, for example, try to grow back, but because the trees are being maintained over their first, you know, four to five years, those trees will get out ahead of the winds. And then instead of having this area lost, you know, like it it's back to productive area. So if possible, as as tidy as possible. And I suppose it's another thing too in relation to the maintenance, even if you trample rushes with a machine or by walking through it and different stuff.

Very soon they'll be back up, like, you know, and old style heavy rushes and stuff like that can fall in on top of young trees. So it can make the maintenance, you know, much more difficult where if you've this clean cut field, anything new that grows is fresher and lighter and you know, the trees can get a good start before there's an issue, you know.

speaker-0 (45:51.704)
I know that some people hate the idea of trees in straight lines, but there's a really important reason for it, Colin, and maybe you could explain that.

speaker-1 (46:00.162)
Yeah, I I we we do get that a lot, you know what I mean? Like so I and I even and it's not just in these forest types, they don't even like it in potentially in agroforestry because they I think their mind that they see these big you they like the idea of big fields and trees sporadic through them, you know, like but if in relation to planting, in relation to the start, I suppose, if you're related to the machine that's trying to create the planting position, if you the planting

the maintenance. Like, you know, when vegetation comes on and you maybe struggling to see the tree, you know, you know that are a straight line in front of you, whereas if they're small and they're all over the place, it can be impossible to find them. in relation to tinning out and pruning, it just makes it actually easier and possible to work on the forest in its early stage. But if you consider a native woodland and you in the future either leave it to its own devices to self-tin, whether you get involved in tinning it out yourself.

It'll you know, it'll it can become odd shaped, if you know what I mean. That apart from your extraction racks, when you look into that forest down the road, whether it be fifteen, twenty, forty years time, they won't necessarily look in lines anymore. So it's really just for ease of a s establishment dermitt, basically, you know? Yeah.

speaker-0 (47:08.322)
Yeah, yeah, and I I can testify to that. Once the trees are in and you're starting to do thinning, especially second and third thinning, it really takes on a very natural look. And it's it's just a necessary part of the establishment, I think. Yeah, Colum, then we'll moving to the end here, but you've talked a little bit about getting the trees established and maintaining them. But in a nutshell, what are the key challenges that you face on a daily basis, just getting those trees free growing to year five, year six?

speaker-1 (47:20.302)
That's just it, yeah.

speaker-1 (47:38.05)
Well look, I suppose it the tr getting them free going. some trees obviously come in a lot you know, they're more vigorous than others, you know. So, you know, you have some species that will they're they're good transplanted, you know, they arrive in bags and you know, like they're very resilient and you can stick them in the ground and they'd nearly, you know, they'd run off on their own. You might never have to look at them again. And then you've other species that need a lot of care. They're maybe slow to get going the first year or two, and then, you know, they need cleaning around or potentially spraying around. They need

You know, even as and you say of a young oak, if you don't prune a young oak in probably its first, you know, three years, you know, you might lose its form altogether. Like, you know, so if that's your target to have, you know, like straight oak trees, then they need interventions like that. But the other big problems we're facing now, Dermot, is deer and hare. You know, like they're they're the big issues of establishing, particularly native woodlands. Some other non-native species also suffer, but native woodlands like

Deer is a big problem, you know, all over the country now. some people say to me, I haven't seen them here, but I th we kinda plant the forest and they will come. There is a deer fencing grant available. But if your site isn't say six hectares or bigger, and well, six hectares and a square or bigger, the the fencing allowance won't cover all the fencing, you know. So it could be bigger than six hectares, but an odd shape, and then it won't cover it. So you can kind of use six hectares as kind of a a a benchmark, you could say. And

As you can imagine, deer fencing is very expensive, but it's the only true way of actually keeping, I suppose, deer out, like you know, so that's a big, big problem. There is you know, a a deer shelter grant available as well, but it only is a contribution towards the costs involved as well. So no matter what size, that's not always an easy route either. And then hair, hair has become a big issue with native woodlands. We're having actually mass losses around the country with them because you can't really keep hair out.

Like, you know, I mean I mean to try and hair fence a site, you know, would be, you know, huge expense. I mean massive. But we've seen is that we've planted some big, big native woodlands and in the first year hair come along and nip a huge amount of the trees. So they they don't tend to eat them, they're more like just nip them off, you know. So some of these might recover, depends how low down they've knit them and some of them won't. But you know, we've had to put in, you know, huge amounts of replacement trees on some sites because of hair, like, you know, like so so they they're

speaker-1 (49:58.56)
Hair and deer is the main, main stumbling block in relation to establishment after you've planted the tree dermid, you know?

speaker-0 (50:05.42)
Very good. Okay. So Colum, last question now. Have you any final tips for an owner who's gonna plant their land? Well

speaker-1 (50:13.036)
Like I said before, Dermott, make sure you're, you know, you've gone down the road of putting the forestry in that you want, you know. Make sure you, I suppose, deal with a forester that has also experience doing the type of forest that, you know, that you're hoping to achieve when you do get your forest up and running and it's planted, like, you know, not necessarily panic in that first year or so where, you know, maybe it looks like you're looking into a a a field of weeds and stuff like that. You know, you know, keep the axis open. Axis is hugely important. Whatever track was designed.

to inspect that, keep it. But don't worry so much in those early years, like you know, as in the early one or two years. Sometimes more grass or vegetation around the tree can make them safer from the lights of hair, you know? And you know, you look out one day, couple of years, two, three years down the line, all of a sudden you'll be looking at, you know, five, six, seven, eight foot high trees and you'll be wondering why why you're worried in the first place, you know, like so look, I'd encourage people to talk to the right people, give get the advice.

And when you get your forest, you know, just enjoy it, like get out amongst it, you know.

speaker-0 (51:16.546)
Brilliant. Okay, Column, thanks very much for joining me today. Thanks again to Colum Galheny from Western Forestry Co-op for his time and input into making the podcast. Ireland really has an attractive support package for anyone considering planting new forests. So if you're curious or want to more information, just look in the show notes below for detail of where you can learn more. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. Any feedback or comments, do feel free to email me at forestynowpodcast at gmail.com.

speaker-1 (51:19.64)
Thank you, Dermot.

speaker-0 (51:46.392)
Till the next time, take care.